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Old 12-11-2012, 04:39 PM
 
936 posts, read 1,720,558 times
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MikeyKid- My total costs for NAR and MLS membership are somewhere near $1K per year which is far less than my telephone bill or most other utility bills for that matter. Your knowledge of the real estate business is lacking in any credibility.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:25 AM
 
Location: Union County
5,696 posts, read 8,044,388 times
Reputation: 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuilterChick View Post
Sorry to insult your sensibilities with the truth about FSBO buyers deducting the commission; but you're all wet.

The rest of your diatribe is rambling nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Hoffman View Post
True- a comp is a comp. That being said when their isn't an agent the seller expects to make more money because they aren't paying a commission. The buyer expects to get the savings since the seller isn't having to pay a commission. In my anecdotal evidence the seller usually comes off more and the buyer gets more of the savings than the seller.

Actually the MLS and NAR expenses equate to less than 2% of my overall cost of running a business. You make good points sometimes but since you've never been an agent you aren't qualified to speak about the costs or challenges of running a real estate business. This post was made in a factual tone, I say that in hopes it doesn't come across as anything but that.
See - I take a break from this forum and this one caught my eye... so I reply... and this is what I get!

At least Brandon admits it's anecdotal - and that's from one who is not long retired from the industry. Regardless, there's no true data on the subject so it's impossible to be "all wet". Disagreement noted, but I can't believe it's much different than any other buyer looking for a steal these days. I'm not going to pay 2,3,4,5...10% more because they're listed with an agent - or am I... because that's essentially what you're saying.

That's fine, if it's 2% then it's 2% too much for what you get... IMO. The technologies offered are infant like in today's world. I stand by what I said about the entire process soup to nuts needing a huge overhaul. It does.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:34 AM
 
Location: Union County
5,696 posts, read 8,044,388 times
Reputation: 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
MikeyKid- My total costs for NAR and MLS membership are somewhere near $1K per year which is far less than my telephone bill or most other utility bills for that matter. Your knowledge of the real estate business is lacking in any credibility.
Hey there... don't know you. I at least know who quilter and brandon are... you seem to have vectored in on "primary" as equating to "big". Your telephone and utility bills are no different than any home based sales business - they aren't specific to the "real estate business".

If you feel you get the value from MLS / NAR and they're as important as having lights - more power to you. Literally. I don't see it. They're terrible.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Columbia, SC
8,807 posts, read 17,226,516 times
Reputation: 6111
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyKid View Post
Hey there... don't know you. I at least know who quilter and brandon are... you seem to have vectored in on "primary" as equating to "big". Your telephone and utility bills are no different than any home based sales business - they aren't specific to the "real estate business".

If you feel you get the value from MLS / NAR and they're as important as having lights - more power to you. Literally. I don't see it. They're terrible.
Mikey, the rebuttal was to the comment that MLS and NAR are a "primary" cost of doing business. It's far from a "primary" expense is all we're getting at. Also, regardless of whether those bills exist for other businesses is irrelevant. They exist in real estate and that is all that is relevant to the conversation.

I think most evidence a FSBO net is going to have to be anecdotal. There is no way to quantify the data because there is no control to measure by. I do however feel the FSBO seller generally does come out ahead with the agent in the fact that even if they net the same amount they had someone relieve a portion of the workload. A savvy buyer can come out ahead but I've seen people that drastically overpaid on a FSBO also. I guess it's really the same as a buyer having an agent if you look at it in simple terms: some get a good deal, some get FMV, some overpay.

At the end of the day, some few people have the knowledge and time to do fine without an agent. Some people have the knowledge but elect to have an agent to buy their time back. Some have the time but not the knowledge they need. Those that elect to have the service of an agent can do so, those that want to represent themselves can do so.

As a side note, I'm not retired unless that wasn't aimed at me.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:51 AM
 
936 posts, read 1,720,558 times
Reputation: 928
I don't particularily like NAR as an organization, but the basics of the real estate business such as MLS cooperation are a good idea.

The market has indeed influenced changes in the business- most of which have been beneficial for consumers.

I started 25 yrs ago at a company and we were charging 7% commision. Most now charge around 5%-- nearly a 30% reduction-- as well as others who offer a menu of services that can cost less than that. We've gone from sub-agency where buyers really didn't have anyone representing them, to full buyer agency. And 'alternative' brokerage firms have popped up all over the place which gives consumers more options than ever including allowing consumers to have their property in the MLS without having a standard full service listing agreement.

So the real estate business is hardly a dinosaur with few changes. There have been significant changes for the benefits of consumers.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Blue Ridge Mntns., NC
9,976 posts, read 13,744,296 times
Reputation: 8328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Hoffman View Post
Mikey, ..................................few people have the knowledge and time to do fine without an agent. Some people have the knowledge but elect to have an agent to buy their time back. Some have the time but not the knowledge they need. Those that elect to have the service of an agent can do so, those that want to represent themselves can do so.

As a side note, I'm not retired unless that wasn't aimed at me.



Brandon, and you don't quilt either.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Union County
5,696 posts, read 8,044,388 times
Reputation: 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Hoffman View Post
Mikey, the rebuttal was to the comment that MLS and NAR are a "primary" cost of doing business. It's far from a "primary" expense is all we're getting at. Also, regardless of whether those bills exist for other businesses is irrelevant. They exist in real estate and that is all that is relevant to the conversation.

I think most evidence a FSBO net is going to have to be anecdotal. There is no way to quantify the data because there is no control to measure by. I do however feel the FSBO seller generally does come out ahead with the agent in the fact that even if they net the same amount they had someone relieve a portion of the workload. A savvy buyer can come out ahead but I've seen people that drastically overpaid on a FSBO also. I guess it's really the same as a buyer having an agent if you look at it in simple terms: some get a good deal, some get FMV, some overpay.

At the end of the day, some few people have the knowledge and time to do fine without an agent. Some people have the knowledge but elect to have an agent to buy their time back. Some have the time but not the knowledge they need. Those that elect to have the service of an agent can do so, those that want to represent themselves can do so.

As a side note, I'm not retired unless that wasn't aimed at me.
Yeah, re-reading I see your point... but I intended it to be along the lines of occupation specific costs - licensing, associations, dues, etc. Stuff like your utilities, gas, office space (if you have one), etc are not exclusive to what you do - and they're of course much higher.

I've posted about this before if you remember and my intention is a hit on MLS and NAR - what you get from them. I'm no FSBO - I list with agents and buy with representation from an agent. Always have. So I'm not here saying FSBO is "the way to go" or not. I just feel like a house is "worth" what comparables are selling for - the market drives the price. So a buyer may expect a FSBO discount, but that doesn't mean they get one. All things being equal - which I understand it's not always the case. Which goes to our point about it being anecdotal - no data.

Speaking of data is my exact issue with MLS and NAR... NAR fudges it (been caught red handed) and MLS does a very poor job overall. The decentralized no standards model it operates under is terrible. If it wasn't for the monopoly they have it would be a no brainer to get something better. The technologies around data now - BI, etc are worlds ahead of what MLS provides you as the professional and me as the consumer. That's not even mentioning the UI itself and the availability of mobile. If any industry should be nailing down a quality professional mobile app it would be MLS for you guys... no? Why NAR isn't leading on this front I have no idea. Too much time in DC greasing politicians? Maybe they like having the data all over the place and easier to fudge... Regardless, at least you have Bernanke on your side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuilterChick View Post
Brandon, and you don't quilt either.
haha - maybe he will quilt when he retires! LOL
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:13 AM
 
Location: DFW - Coppell / Las Colinas
29,443 posts, read 33,852,408 times
Reputation: 35218
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyKid View Post
Speaking of data is my exact issue with MLS and NAR... NAR fudges it (been caught red handed) and MLS does a very poor job overall.
You do understand their is no "MLS" organization similar to NAR? MLS systems are just locally owned computer data bases paid for locally by agents, appraisers and members to consolidate home listings and sale info.

All MLS's are run on the local level and we try to do the best we can. MLS data is so us agents can share our listings, cooperate to get them sold and service our clients. In an area like DFW where there are maybe 8,000 RE agents, we actually do a remarkable job inputing the best data we can. Yes there are mistakes but not enough to make a problem.

Our MLS does a fantastic job.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Cary, NC
31,053 posts, read 54,338,865 times
Reputation: 29549
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyKid View Post
Yeah, re-reading I see your point... but I intended it to be along the lines of occupation specific costs - licensing, associations, dues, etc. Stuff like your utilities, gas, office space (if you have one), etc are not exclusive to what you do - and they're of course much higher.

I've posted about this before if you remember and my intention is a hit on MLS and NAR - what you get from them. I'm no FSBO - I list with agents and buy with representation from an agent. Always have. So I'm not here saying FSBO is "the way to go" or not. I just feel like a house is "worth" what comparables are selling for - the market drives the price. So a buyer may expect a FSBO discount, but that doesn't mean they get one. All things being equal - which I understand it's not always the case. Which goes to our point about it being anecdotal - no data.

Speaking of data is my exact issue with MLS and NAR... NAR fudges it (been caught red handed) and MLS does a very poor job overall. The decentralized no standards model it operates under is terrible. If it wasn't for the monopoly they have it would be a no brainer to get something better. The technologies around data now - BI, etc are worlds ahead of what MLS provides you as the professional and me as the consumer. That's not even mentioning the UI itself and the availability of mobile. If any industry should be nailing down a quality professional mobile app it would be MLS for you guys... no? Why NAR isn't leading on this front I have no idea. Too much time in DC greasing politicians? Maybe they like having the data all over the place and easier to fudge... Regardless, at least you have Bernanke on your side.



haha - maybe he will quilt when he retires! LOL
Mikey,
Two huge hurdles regarding standardization of MLSs are the fragmentation of ownership and the wildly varying local standards and regulations regarding real estate brokerage practice.
Not all MLSs are owned by REALTOR affiliates. Some are owned by other organizations. We just had a nascent state-wide MLS crash and burn without getting off the ground in NC.
NAR certainly does have many expected common standards for affiliate MLSs, but cannot control operations of non-affiliated systems.

And look at the myriad posts here that depict variations in practice deeply rooted in local customs.
The list is endless, regarding appointment setting, property descriptions.

Whenever you see someone say "Open escrow" or "Close of Escrow," they are talking about (bizarre, archaic, unwieldy ) legal frameworks which I do not recognize and do not have to observe.
But, I sure want them to toe the line and conform to my daily norms of practice, just as they would resist and prefer that North Carolina practitioners adjust and adopt their state laws and regs in the name of standardization.
Heck we just had a thread about closing in Virginia, and how the deed would not be recorded until the next business day, by law. I think VA needs to work like NC, so they can do it "right."

It would seem like a piece of cake to standardize MLSs. Tell that to CoreLogic, the company with hundreds of MLS solutions deployed across the US. They have to tailor their solution to each MLS, to respect local conventions and regulations.
While there would seem to be plenty of funds to support software development, when each MLS has to foot the bill for their local customization, the funds do not go as far without economies of scale. I predict that will not change soon.

Last edited by MikeJaquish; 12-13-2012 at 07:36 AM..
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Union County
5,696 posts, read 8,044,388 times
Reputation: 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakin View Post
You do understand their is no "MLS" organization similar to NAR? MLS systems are just locally owned computer data bases paid for locally by agents, appraisers and members to consolidate home listings and sale info.

All MLS's are run on the local level and we try to do the best we can. MLS data is so us agents can share our listings, cooperate to get them sold and service our clients. In an area like DFW where there are maybe 8,000 RE agents, we actually do a remarkable job inputing the best data we can. Yes there are mistakes but not enough to make a problem.

Our MLS does a fantastic job.
Exactly my point - decentralized with no standards. No independent auditing. Nada. Considering it's your primary marketing tool and your system of record, I don't have any idea how you could use the word "fantastic" to describe it. If you saw what a real quality data driven application looked like you would change your opinion in a heart beat. As for garbage in equating to garbage out - well, that's an off shoot issue and not a small one IMO.
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