Sellers took cabinets off the wall! (offer, Realtor, state, furniture)
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Nope, not family or friend, we never met her before. She was recommended to us by hub's relocation company. I have never commented one way or the either on her blame in this situation. She herself accepts part of the blame for not noticing the comment in the MLS, and she suggested to the seller's realtor that they split the cost of replacement cabinets 50/50. But the seller's agent and broker have repeatedly said this is ENTIRELY my agent's fault, and that she should fully pay for restitution. I completely disagree with that. Yes, she DID err in not noticing the comment, BUT, she has been nothing but respectful and professional in her communication with the other agent in trying to rectify the problem. They have been quite the opposite, so they are who I am angry with.
I like your agent for taking responsibility and trying to correct her mistake.
She herself accepts part of the blame for not noticing the comment in the MLS, and she suggested to the seller's realtor that they split the cost of replacement cabinets 50/50.
That's very generous of your agent since the primary--if not sole--responsibility lies on the shoulders of the Seller's agent, along with the Seller.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
Seller's agent was quite literally yelling at us in this conference call...
You should probably not have been speaking directly to the Seller's agent. That should have be left for your agent to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
She and the broker have told the sellers they have no obligation to return the cabinets. They say that what the MLS says, goes.
They are idiots. If I were in Texas, I'd file a complaint against them just for being incompetent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
He is being unprofessional by refusing to take her calls or answer her emails (yes, the broker specifically wrote “THIS WILL BE THE ONLY EMAIL YOU RESPONSE YOU WILL RECEIVE FROM ME” and “STOP HARASSING MY AGENT ABOUT THESE CABINETS”), making it impossible for us to work this out.
Well...on this one I'll have to agree that your agent should stop trying to contact the Seller's broker and agent. Instead, your agent should be busy filing an official complaint against them and helping you in filing your complaint. Again, good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
P.S. Make sure to follow through with suing in Small Claims Court--and I'd still recommend that you not return any deposit to the Seller until this is resolved. That could be the only money you'll see from them.
Because of numerous other things the seller's agent and broker did, I will definitely be filing a complaint through Texas Real Estate Commision against them.
During closing, seller's agent (via conference call) instructed title agent to refuse to give us the seller's $500 deposit check, clearly required per the leaseback contract. Our closing dragged out for four hours while various parties argued over this deposit check. Seller's agent said we could not have the check because we had shown ourselves "not trustworthy” because of “how we violated the contract regarding cash deal and title insurance.”…..referring to:
1) Early in the process, we changed from an all cash deal to getting a small mortgage. Sellers signed the amended contract showing we would be getting some financing, so it was all legal and official, but this apparently branded us “not trustworthy.” (why did they even care that we decided to get a small mortgage??? Until this conference call we had NO IDEA it was even a problem with anyone.), and…….
2) We had planned to forego title insurance (our legal right, and after weighing the risks, deciding we did not want to spend $3400 for it), but the seller FREAKED out about this (again, why would they even care?!?), so we DID get title insurance, just to ward off any more blow ups and freak outs from the seller, but again, it branded us “not trustworthy.”
Anyway……
Seller's agent was quite literally yelling at us in this conference call, repeatedly bringing up the “not trustworthy” thing, and saying “Why should the sellers have to follow the contract when YOU violate it whenever you want?”…blah blah blah. She kept threatening to cancel the entire sale, and telling us that until the funds have transferred, the sellers could indeed cancel (even though they had already signed all paperwork at their separate closing earlier in the day.) I was literally in tears during closing thinking that we were not going to get the house. She was rude and unprofessional and created an enormous amount of stress. It was obvious she did not want this closing to complete, but I didn’t know why at the time (read on for my theory).
Other complaints:
She and the broker have told the sellers they have no obligation to return the cabinets. They say that what the MLS says, goes. This false information has exacerbated our problem, and that is another complaint I will be filing.
Deceptive marketing is another complaint. The upgrades sheet listed the cabinets.
Broker has told our agent SHE should pay for the cabinets out of her “big bonus.” That bonus is a completely separate issue. He is being unprofessional by refusing to take her calls or answer her emails (yes, the broker specifically wrote “THIS WILL BE THE ONLY EMAIL YOU RESPONSE YOU WILL RECEIVE FROM ME” and “STOP HARASSING MY AGENT ABOUT THESE CABINETS”), making it impossible for us to work this out.
Here’s my theory about all of this:
We recently found out that, at some point after our offer was accepted (which was 99% of asking price, an excellent offer in Texas!), a full price offer came in, via an agent who was willing to forego the advertised $10K buyer’s agent bonus that our agent was, naturally, happy to accept. So, unbeknownst to us, the seller’s agent wanted our deal to fall through. It seems quite apparent now, that she and her broker were intentionally doing things to cause us to not close, and to now be as difficult and rude to us as possible.
I’m sure I will find other specific things to include in my complaint, as I review all the documents and emails.
Over the years, I've noticed that those who accuse other people of theft, are usually thieves themselves.
As soon as she started accusing you of being untrustworthy, I would have started wondering about this.
It seems to me that the contract is the binding document, not something mentioned in the MLS listing.
I do hope you follow through with filing a complaint with Texas Real Estate Commision. Also, small claims court.
It will take some time but think of the fun you'll have.
Don't know how I missed this. Maybe because there were quickly so many responses it seemed pointless. Looking forward to taking time to read through these. I did read marksmu's and, of course, agree. I'm looking forward to see what happened during the walk thru.
Just this week I heard of two more situations that did this. They occurred a while ago, though. One was a person foreclosed on and mad.
The other was a family trying to get things straight so they could get the loan on their home. Lots of loose ends that seemed small and doable...just needed a couple months more on a job, a piece of paperwork here and there. And they had put down a large non-refundable downpayment believing they'd be approved and wanting to encourage the seller to let them move in and rent before settlement. So the seller eventually went into bankruptcy and it didn't help that the house buyers never got approved and the seller lost his house...couldn't resell it quickly enough because the renters/buyers felt they were due the non-refundable deposit and when they didn't get it they took cabinets, appliances, unimaginable things...even door knobs. They left the windows.
Hope you won't let this spoil the enjoyment of your new home... keep an eye on the big picture.
Question... would you still have done the deal without the cabinets?
Here's what happened to a co-worker.
They were so upset... the stay at home Mom made it her crusade over closet organizers that were shown in pictures and listed as upgrades.
She did the following.
Filed in Small Claims for $5,000
Named both the husband and wife sellers.
The listing agent and broker
The selling agent and broker
Sent a summons to the Home Inspector as a witness
Filed a complaint return receipt against all licensees with the Department of Real Estate
Contacted the local Consumer Reporter which filmed a segment titled, "Know what you're buying"
In the end... she agreed to settle for $4,000 dollars before court.
She said the two Brokers got together and decided each person would kick in $1,000
The home sold for 800k with a 6% commission... so 48k in commission money was now 44k.
She settled because even winning in Court is just a part of the process... judgements still need to be collected.
A family member just closed on a ranch property... the sellers had orally told him they had taken everything they had planned to take scattered around the ranch...
On the day of closing... the ranch was picked clean... both junk and some usable implements... buyer was surprised and called it a wash... said it would have cost several thousands to dispose of the junk with a few usable things left behind.
I feel bad for you, but I agree with those who say your beef is with YOUR agent. She should have made it clear to you that there was an exception on the MLS. I realize how she might not have noticed the discrepancy between the listing and the sales brochure, but it still should be her responsibility. If she offered to take half the blame, she should write you a check for $2,000 and you should accept it. You were robbed, but she held the door for them while they carried out your cabinets.
I feel bad for you, but I agree with those who say your beef is with YOUR agent. She should have made it clear to you that there was an exception on the MLS. I realize how she might not have noticed the discrepancy between the listing and the sales brochure, but it still should be her responsibility. If she offered to take half the blame, she should write you a check for $2,000 and you should accept it. You were robbed, but she held the door for them while they carried out your cabinets.
But their agent is not a party to the contract and their agent didn't sign that everything attached to the home except for what was excluded was spelled out - of which the cabinets were not listed. The MLS form even has a disclosure stating accuracy not guaranteed. No doubt both agents messed up, but this is a contract dispute, not an MLS dispute.
Having been in a very similar situation myself . . . I notice there is something that no one has addressed.
Were these cabinets, by any chance, by a manufacturer such as IKEA, or part of a "system" (such as those by Rubbermaid)?
These systems are made to be MOBILE, REMOVEABLE, and are not necessarily permanently attached and therefore, are not permanently attached fixtures.
Also, the method in which such cabinets are attached can also be key in defining whether or not they are "permanent fixtures."
I would be very interested in finding out exactly what type of cabinets these are b/c OP may very well NOT have a case if these are described by the manufacturer as removeable, mobile, detachable, etc. items.
In such cases, the cabinets would be considered furniture, not fixtures.
I am no attorney, and my real estate license has long been inactive, but I do have experience in the furniture industry and have actually dealt with litigation over furniture mistaken by the buyer as a "fixture." And if that assumed "fixture" is really "furniture" and the Seller can prove it, there is no case here, regardless of what was or wasn't specified in the contract.
In addition, a judge may be interested in how the property was marketed (the sales sheet and description of the property) but in the end, in this particular case, the manufacturer's description of the "cabinets" in question, and the way they were installed, will win or lose this case. At least, that is surely how I would approach it (as the Seller).
As the Buyer, I would be researching that aspect of things before I spent more $$$ on an attorney and a case I won't win.
But their agent is not a party to the contract and their agent didn't sign that everything attached to the home except for what was excluded was spelled out - of which the cabinets were not listed. The MLS form even has a disclosure stating accuracy not guaranteed. No doubt both agents messed up, but this is a contract dispute, not an MLS dispute.
This is indeed a contract dispute.
Regardless of what the MLS listing states (and it appears to both extol the virtues of the garage cabinets as well as mention they don't convey), it's the contract that counts in court. The contract is what both parties signed. If there is no mention of cabinets being an exception to the everything attached to the walls stays part of the contract, then I don't see where the seller has a legal leg to stand on.
MLS information generally has a disclaimer about accuracy not being guaranteed. I've seen listings where the square footage is off and the lot size is off. No big deal. It's what's in the contract that counts.
The seller's agent is trying to pull a fast one by being difficult to deal with. This has probably worked in the past. People just say whatever and go on.
That's how shady operators continue. No one calls them on it.
Perhaps a small claims court case could be made against the sellers as tenants who stole items from the property as the cabinets were apparently there when the property conveyed at closing.
Last edited by GotHereQuickAsICould; 05-03-2014 at 05:46 AM..
Having been in a very similar situation myself . . . I notice there is something that no one has addressed.
Were these cabinets, by any chance, by a manufacturer such as IKEA, or part of a "system" (such as those by Rubbermaid)?
These systems are made to be MOBILE, REMOVEABLE, and are not necessarily permanently attached and therefore, are not permanently attached fixtures.
Also, the method in which such cabinets are attached can also be key in defining whether or not they are "permanent fixtures."
I would be very interested in finding out exactly what type of cabinets these are b/c OP may very well NOT have a case if these are described by the manufacturer as removeable, mobile, detachable, etc. items.
In such cases, the cabinets would be considered furniture, not fixtures.
I am no attorney, and my real estate license has long been inactive, but I do have experience in the furniture industry and have actually dealt with litigation over furniture mistaken by the buyer as a "fixture." And if that assumed "fixture" is really "furniture" and the Seller can prove it, there is no case here, regardless of what was or wasn't specified in the contract.
In addition, a judge may be interested in how the property was marketed (the sales sheet and description of the property) but in the end, in this particular case, the manufacturer's description of the "cabinets" in question, and the way they were installed, will win or lose this case. At least, that is surely how I would approach it (as the Seller).
As the Buyer, I would be researching that aspect of things before I spent more $$$ on an attorney and a case I won't win.
Just a heads up!
If their kitchen cabinets were IKEA ("MOBILE, REMOVABLE"), does that mean they could legally make off with the IKEA kitchen cabinets. How about the IKEA countertops?
Good grief, all cabinets are removable. If they weren't, kitchen remodeling would be impossible.
Freestanding cabinets, bookshelves, etc. are furniture.
If they are attached to the walls, they come with house. That's the way real estate contracts read. If you want to keep a light fixture, you make it clear in the contract that it doesn't convey. Same way with cabinets.
Last edited by GotHereQuickAsICould; 05-03-2014 at 06:13 AM..
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