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Old 02-10-2015, 04:50 AM
Status: "Made the Retirement Run in under 12 parsecs!!!" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Cary, NC
43,141 posts, read 76,719,434 times
Reputation: 45473

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontKnowIfImComingOrGoing View Post
Well I'd be in good company since most of the realtors I've dealt with and my many friends who flip houses have dealt with behave exactly as I said above.

Sorry, if that hurts, but its the truth.

Did you ever notice the people who are commenting against me are all realtors. In the mean time I've gotten twice as many quick reputations!

Anyway, as I said, there's nothing wrong with being money driven, but it is wrong to pretend your doing some great service for humanity.
Actually, let's review what you said....
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontKnowIfImComingOrGoing View Post
...

I don't blame realtors for behaving that way, I think anyone whose doing the job to make money has to behave that ways. But its just plain silly to pretend otherwise.
IOW, you said you think it is fine and justifiable to lie, cheat, and steal just because there is a nickel on the table. And that it is mature to claim to be a toad.

It is unfortunate that the only people who have openly disagreed with you are agents. However, that probably indicates that the bar is not set as low for agents as it is for people who would laud your disgusting ethical and moral posture with "quick reps."

Last edited by MikeJaquish; 02-10-2015 at 06:01 AM..
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Rochester NY (western NY)
1,021 posts, read 1,875,225 times
Reputation: 2330
I'm not an agent nor do I have much experience in real estate, but I'm definitely reading the posts by these two clowns as nothing but self-righteous drivel that they are spewing in an effort only to make themselves feel better about whatever it is they do.

- StealthRabbit buys and sells commercial and revenue stream properties, which means he most likely deals directly with buyers and sellers who know exactly what they want out of a deal, and how much they want to pay. Something tells me the negotiations are straightforward and to the point, and most likely predominantly all cash or mostly cash deals. This is something I would probably not use an RE agent for as well. So his circumstances are atypical when compared to residential real estate transactions, but he is too jaded to see that fact.

- DontKnowIfImComingOrGoing is a flipper, where the deals are done in cash on homes that a seller is trying to move quick to a buyer who is buying the house as-is, with little heavy negotiation being done behind the scenes. Again, another scenario that has nothing to do with buying a residential home one plans on living in and paying a mortgage on.

It seems to me that both of them are relatively smart, but not wholly intelligent.
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Old 02-10-2015, 09:04 AM
 
8,544 posts, read 12,314,446 times
Reputation: 16448
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontKnowIfImComingOrGoing View Post
Well I'd be in good company since most of the realtors I've dealt with and my many friends who flip houses have dealt with behave exactly as I said above.
Well, as the saying goes, "Birds of a feather..."

By your own admission, your moral compass is rather askew. That's why I said that you would make a lousy real estate agent. Sure, there are some in the business who feel as you do--that money is the only objective, and that getting it by any means is justified. (But they usually don't stay in business for very long; or they lose business due to their reputation. Plus, I don't consider those people to be "agents", they're just sales people.) From my experience, however, those numbers are low--even though any are too many! We certainly don't need any more who share your values to be in this business.

Money isn't everything, nor is it the most important. Far from it. If I were a buyer's agent in your area, I would profusely warn anyone who was considering purchasing a flipped house from you or your friends. In that case, I would be doing my job by getting zero commission. And I would feel very good about it. (See how happy I would be?!)
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Old 02-11-2015, 10:31 AM
 
119 posts, read 284,624 times
Reputation: 111
Firstly, I'm not a flipper but some friends who are taught me me the magic words,

"I'm not working with a realtor why don't you find me someone from your office and you can keep all the commission".

I've tried this now three times in the last 5 years (we move regularly due to work) and its worked every time to get a winning bid below the asking price. My friends say there experience is it works 75% of the time.

The maths is simple. If the home is on the market for $300K and the selling agent has to split the commission they are much better of selling the home for $290K and keeping all the commission.

I'm not sure why all the responses to my email have focused on my moral compass just because I said I understood why realtors behave the way they do. What about the realtors who actually do this? I know many in the profession like to believe these realtors are far and few between but its clearly not the case from the evidence. I know that's difficult to swallow.
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Turlock, CA
323 posts, read 374,543 times
Reputation: 492
I think a lot of people just don't understand the relationship between a buyer or seller and real estate agent. This includes many of the agents themselves.

In theory, the agent is there to represent their party; be that the buyer or the seller. They should do anything they can to advocate for that party and get them the best deal possible. In many cases though, the goal is to increase personal income as much as possible by getting a higher sale price.

In the case of a seller's agent, this isn't an issue. The more your client makes, the more you make. Goals are aligned there.

In the case of the buyer's agent, things get muddy. By fighting for a lower sale price you're decreasing your own paycheck. More work for less pay. Many buyers think that by hiring an agent- any agent- they're getting someone that will represent them in the buyer's best interest.

The next issue is that many people think agents have much more expertise than they actually have. Agents are not attorneys, or surveyors, or building inspectors, or title officer, or planning technicians. In many cases, they have no idea of the issues these professions have to deal with or the potential disasters looming for their clients.

The problem is that you have the "good eggs" that will represent you getting painted with the same brush as the more numerous "bad eggs", and the general public has no way of telling who is who.

That said, as a buyer, there's not much reason to avoid using one... you're already paying for the service through the sales price. You just need to hold them to the fire and not let them take over negotiating price. Treat them as a convenience, like an assistant to free you up from arranging meetings or setting up inspections.

Last edited by Darrett; 02-11-2015 at 12:22 PM..
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:21 PM
Status: "Made the Retirement Run in under 12 parsecs!!!" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Cary, NC
43,141 posts, read 76,719,434 times
Reputation: 45473
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontKnowIfImComingOrGoing View Post
Firstly, I'm not a flipper but some friends who are taught me me the magic words,

"I'm not working with a realtor why don't you find me someone from your office and you can keep all the commission".

I've tried this now three times in the last 5 years (we move regularly due to work) and its worked every time to get a winning bid below the asking price. My friends say there experience is it works 75% of the time.

The maths is simple. If the home is on the market for $300K and the selling agent has to split the commission they are much better of selling the home for $290K and keeping all the commission.

I'm not sure why all the responses to my email have focused on my moral compass just because I said I understood why realtors behave the way they do. What about the realtors who actually do this? I know many in the profession like to believe these realtors are far and few between but its clearly not the case from the evidence. I know that's difficult to swallow.
Why?

Because your moral compass is askew. You say you would cheat for money and expect others would and should. That's why.
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:35 PM
 
119 posts, read 284,624 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJaquish View Post
Why?

Because your moral compass is askew. You say you would cheat for money and expect others would and should. That's why.
Please show me where I said that. I just said I understood why realtors behave the way they do not that I would do it as well.

Also, all the realtors are not addressing my main point. Why do so many realtors agree to have an "in-house" transaction to maximize their commission.
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:36 PM
Status: "Made the Retirement Run in under 12 parsecs!!!" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Cary, NC
43,141 posts, read 76,719,434 times
Reputation: 45473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrett View Post
I think a lot of people just don't understand the relationship between a buyer or seller and real estate agent. This includes many of the agents themselves.

In theory, the agent is there to represent their party; be that the buyer or the seller. They should do anything they can to advocate for that party and get them the best deal possible. In many cases though, the goal is to increase personal income as much as possible by getting a higher sale price.

In the case of a seller's agent, this isn't an issue. The more your client makes, the more you make. Goals are aligned there.

In the case of the buyer's agent, things get muddy. By fighting for a lower sale price you're decreasing your own paycheck. More work for less pay. Many buyers think that by hiring an agent- any agent- they're getting someone that will represent them in the buyer's best interest.

The next issue is that many people think agents have much more expertise than they actually have. Agents are not attorneys, or surveyors, or building inspectors, or title officer, or planning technicians. In many cases, they have no idea of the issues these professions have to deal with or the potential disasters looming for their clients.

The problem is that you have the "good eggs" that will represent you getting painted with the same brush as the more numerous "bad eggs", and the general public has no way of telling who is who.

I probably won't use an agent next time around, unless I know them personally.

You are not entirely wrong, but you paint with too broad a brush.
From experience and training, a good agent can foresee a lot of the issues that a client may encounter in purchase of property.
While agents are typically not attorneys, or surveyors, or building inspectors, or title officer, or planning technicians; Attorneys, or surveyors, or building inspectors, or title officers, or planning technicians are typically not agents, and don't have agent training.
But, any or all may have a role in a transaction.

The pay deal..
You know the list of stupid questions pop sites and pop agents tell clients to ask their agent?
"How much do you average negotiating off list price?"
Etc. Ad infinitum...
Well one very important one is:
"Can you afford to be in business?"
Followed by:
"If I don't close on a house for 90 days, will you still be able cover your costs and to work with me?"
There are a lot of nearly broke agents out there who cannot afford to be in business, unless they fleece someone ASAP. To Be Avoided.

Cutting pay by negotiating a great deal is only an academic issue. Any decent agent is far more satisfied with a good negotiation than a couple extra dollars. Exercising skill and enjoying the action means a lot more than a few bucks.

I have a favorite story of a client who said, "When you are talking to them and a couple thousand more will help, raise the offer $2,000."
He put the paycheck in my pocket.
I talked to them, and held it back. Very nerve-wracking, because if he didn't get the house, and I held it back, maybe I did a poor job.
He got the house, at the price.
I called him back and said, "Hey. You're buying a house."
Him: "Great!!! Wonderful!!!" Happy Dance!!!!
Me: "It gets better. You kept your $2,000."
Him: "Great!!! Wonderful!!! Whoooo Hooooo!" He knew he got a very good deal. 5% under appraisal, and that was when appraisals were just covering purchase prices.

That is nearly word for word, true story, and was extremely satisfying.
Lemme see. $2,000 @ 2.4% co-broke = $48.00.
Hell, it's a $1000+ story. I should send my buyer a check for the enjoyment it has given me over the last few years.
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:40 PM
 
119 posts, read 284,624 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrett View Post
In the case of a seller's agent, this isn't an issue. The more your client makes, the more you make. Goals are aligned there.
Hi Darrett,

Maybe your part of town is different, but in many states if the selling agency represents both the buyer and seller the agency keeps all the commission. Most agency actively push for this as its a good way to double up on profits. So the goals are not aligned in that situation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrett View Post
In the case of the buyer's agent, things get muddy. By fighting for a lower sale price you're decreasing your own paycheck.
That's certainly true, but the more likely situation is that fighting for a lower price cost time. Most agents want you to buy quickly (no matter what the cost) so they can move on to the next customer.
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Turlock, CA
323 posts, read 374,543 times
Reputation: 492
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJaquish View Post
You are not entirely wrong, but you paint with too broad a brush.
From experience and training, a good agent can foresee a lot of the issues that a client may encounter in purchase of property.
While agents are typically not attorneys, or surveyors, or building inspectors, or title officer, or planning technicians; Attorneys, or surveyors, or building inspectors, or title officers, or planning technicians are typically not agents, and don't have agent training.
But, any or all may have a role in a transaction.

The pay deal..
You know the list of stupid questions pop sites and pop agents tell clients to ask their agent?
"How much do you average negotiating off list price?"
Etc. Ad infinitum...
Well one very important one is:
"Can you afford to be in business?"
Followed by:
"If I don't close on a house for 90 days, will you still be able cover your costs and to work with me?"
There are a lot of nearly broke agents out there who cannot afford to be in business, unless they fleece someone ASAP. To Be Avoided.

Cutting pay by negotiating a great deal is only an academic issue. Any decent agent is far more satisfied with a good negotiation than a couple extra dollars. Exercising skill and enjoying the action means a lot more than a few bucks.

I have a favorite story of a client who said, "When you are talking to them and a couple thousand more will help, raise the offer $2,000."
He put the paycheck in my pocket.
I talked to them, and held it back. Very nerve-wracking, because if he didn't get the house, and I held it back, maybe I did a poor job.
He got the house, at the price.
I called him back and said, "Hey. You're buying a house."
Him: "Great!!! Wonderful!!!" Happy Dance!!!!
Me: "It gets better. You kept your $2,000."
Him: "Great!!! Wonderful!!! Whoooo Hooooo!" He knew he got a very good deal. 5% under appraisal, and that was when appraisals were just covering purchase prices.

That is nearly word for word, true story, and was extremely satisfying.
Lemme see. $2,000 @ 2.4% co-broke = $48.00.
Hell, it's a $1000+ story. I should send my buyer a check for the enjoyment it has given me over the last few years.
And as I said, you do have good eggs. But generally, the public needs to be very careful not to give up control over the situation. There is a massive potential for conflict of interest where your pay goes up by increasing the costs your buyer pays. Many agents don't fall into that trap and have a more long-term gameplan for their careers. Many do, though, and buyers need to recognize that they're the best advocate for themselves in the transaction.

Really I'm not sure it's an issue with agents themselves, more it's an issue with the public and their perception. This is the biggest purchase that people make, and far too often they assume that the agent is an all-seeing expert, rather than a facilitator to line up the experts to give the buyer the information they need.
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