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How about the ones who wont let you have 6ft rose bushes ? my sister and brother in law looked at a property once with an HOA and they started reading the rules and one of them was the 6ft rose bushes and another one was a statement from your employer of what you made per year . My brother In law told them to shove it where the sun does not shine .
IC_Delight, I know this sin't going to change your mind, but let me take a moment to correct some of your misunderstandings.
It's actually a very good analogy. Your neighborhood is a collection of homes and features that you and your neighbors are responsible for. I don't expect others to pay for the features only my neighbors enjoy and if my neighborhood didn't exist the sotmrwater treatment wouldn't be needed. That's why the responsibility for it's costs and maintenance remains with the neighborhood.
No it's a poor analogy. The tennis court was an amenity put in by the developer to catch the flies (prospective purchasers). The tennis court is not mandated by government. There is no reason to place "responsibility for .. costs and maintenance" for stormwater retention solely on the homeowners in new subdivisions. The old subdivisions likewise created this "problem" and it is arbitrary, capricious, and discriminatory to suggest not only do they not have to provide for such allegedly environmentally protective stuff but that they have no obligation to share in the cost imposed upon only a few others which is supposedly for the benefit of everyone.
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Originally Posted by North_Raleigh_Guy
Stormwater ponds aren;t in older subdivisions because of poor planning at the time. Now that we know they are needed they are required. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It is EXTREMELY expensive to go back and retrofit exisitng neighborhoods with stormwater treatment. First problem is there is probably no where to put them. All the space is taken up by homes. Unless of course you are volunteering your home be taken down to make room for the pond. But I doubt that.
Eminent domain is always available for a government. The example you gave would at least meet the pretext of "public purpose". The government can take and pay for the home for these purposes if it wants to. Your excuse is not an excuse as to why this shouldn't be a cost borne by all taxpayers.
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Originally Posted by North_Raleigh_Guy
Sorry - but that's not how the Federal Clean Water Act works. The polluter is responsible for cleaning up the pollution they create. The new neighborhood creates increased stormwater runoff and the new neighborhood is required to mitigate that.
Where does it provide that the "new neighborhood" is solely responsible for the costs of maintaining stormwater retention and runoff control? Also it is not necessarily "polluting". Slowing down the effects of torrents of water due to large amounts of rainfall is not pollution control so much as it is attempting to prevent erosion and damage from water movement. It didn't stop "pollution" nor did it stop water from getting into creeks and streams which by the way get plenty of runoff from sources other than "neighborhoods" to begin with.
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Originally Posted by North_Raleigh_Guy
No body is making excuses. I'm just giving you reasons why they serve a role in maintaining these ponds.
Of course you are giving excuses. You are giving excuses as to why all new developments should be burdened by HOAs and why stormwater control features should be imposed only in some places and paid for privately in perpetuity. None of your reasoning is a basis for why ongoing maintenance shouldn't be a cost of local government or borne solely by people in the subdivision. Most of the time the restrictive covenants in these subdivisions impose absolutely no obligation for the HOA corporation to maintain anything.
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Originally Posted by North_Raleigh_Guy
They also serve other purposes. Clearly you've had some bad personal experiences. But the fact that you have had personality conflicts with an HOA is hardly enough reason for the state to through out the whole process. Does your HOA really spend its "entire time" threatening and harassing you? That seems a bit over the top no?
Personality conflicts? Puhhlease. This isn't "my HOA". This is EVERY HOA.
Name another "non-profit" that spends its entire time threatening, harassing, "fining", filing lawsuits against, and foreclosing against its own members. Yes that's what HOA corporations do - I didn't say HOAs did that to every homeowner (of course not, board members are inherently exempt from being the target of HOA action by virtue of being in control of the HOA corp). If it's not one homeowner being threatened, then it's another.
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Originally Posted by North_Raleigh_Guy
Final Thought:
The maintenance of stormwater treatment systems is only one aspect of why HOAs are needed. But it's an important one.
Yet none of your arguments support the proposition that an HOA corporation is needed nor why this shouldn't be a cost borne by local government and all the taxpayers. If this was a necessary reason for HOAs then why doesn't the statute that mandate them obligate the HOA corporation to maintain stormwater treatment systems? You won't find any mention of such things in the North Carolina act.
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Originally Posted by North_Raleigh_Guy
The notion that each individual local government should (or even could) take over thousands and thousands of these systems located on private land has been debated for a long time. It just isn't a feasible solution (and its much more complicated than most people realize). It would be a non-starter in the General Assembly for those trying to make arguments to remove the HOA requirement.
Where in the statutory scheme even in your state does the law obligate the HOA corporation to maintain the stormwater retention features you proclaim the HOA to be necessary for? If you claim this was so necessary that your legislature had to impose involuntary membership HOAs on every subdivision after 1999 then surely the act would have stated and imposed an obligation for maintaining stormwater retention features. It's not there. The emperor has no clothes.
Last edited by IC_deLight; 04-29-2016 at 09:34 AM..
They could definitely do both of those things. Also timeline for decorations, so for Christmas decorations you might only be allowed to have them out from the day after Thanksgiving to Jan 5th for example.
We did this in our HOA unfortunately because of abuse. We had homeowners who would put up Christmas lights then just leave them up year'round out of laziness or handicap or whathaveyou.
The most rediculous one Ive personally experienced is requiring all homeowners to pressurewash their driveways. Yes lets all go out and buy a $500 pressure washer, the local Lowes would have a field day.
No HOA in my neighborhood but the city has requirements:
no boats/RVs parked in the front
no soliciting
no non-working vehicles
no parking over the sidewalks
you must maintain your fencing
no overgrowth of your yard
you must maintain your pool
Personally, it is the best situation for me. I can call code enforcement if my neighbor lets their pool go black and leaves a car up on blocks, but I don't have anyone telling me what color to paint my front door. We have an alley behind the house so where trashcans are stored is never an issue.
My cousin lives in a HOA neighborhood that mandated that they must have exactly 3 palm trees in their front yard at all times. She is not a great gardener and had the worst luck with keeping the palms alive (they aren't native for her climate by the way) and spent so much money replacing palm trees all the time.
They could definitely do both of those things. Also timeline for decorations, so for Christmas decorations you might only be allowed to have them out from the day after Thanksgiving to Jan 5th for example.
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Originally Posted by thatguydownsouth
We did this in our HOA unfortunately because of abuse. We had homeowners who would put up Christmas lights then just leave them up year'round out of laziness or handicap or whathaveyou.
The most rediculous one Ive personally experienced is requiring all homeowners to pressurewash their driveways. Yes lets all go out and buy a $500 pressure washer, the local Lowes would have a field day.
No it's a poor analogy. There is no reason to place "responsibility for .. costs and maintenance" for stormwater retention solely on the homeowners in new subdivisions. The old subdivisions likewise created this "problem" and it is arbitrary, capricious, and discriminatory to suggest not only do they not have to provide for such allegedly environmentally protective stuff but that they have no obligation to share in the cost imposed upon only a few others which is supposedly for the benefit of everyone.
Just because you don't understand doesn't make it a poor analogy. Why should homeowners not be held responsible for the stormwater created by their new neighborhood? I've already explained to you that that is not how the Clean Water Act Works. The polluter is responsible. If you pollute the lake I get my drinking water from you pay to clean it up. The burden doesn't fall on me. Also, you can't go back in time and retroactively apply laws to existing neighborhoods (good luck if you want to try that). But you certainly don't need to continue making the same mistake moving forward. Regardless, the fact that you think it is "unfair" doesn't support your main issues that HOA's aren't needed. This is what's called a RED HERRING.
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Originally Posted by IC_deLight
Eminent domain is always available for a government....The government can take and pay for the home for these purposes if it wants to.
I thought we were keeping things realistic. Eminent domain is your answer? Taking away a home is your answer? Really? That's not a realistic solution at all - which is why you haven't seen that done. Let's try and keep this discussion back here on earth.
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Originally Posted by IC_deLight
Where does it provide that the "new neighborhood" is solely responsible for the costs of maintaining stormwater retention and runoff control?
Local governments require stormwater maintenance agreements when new developments are built. These agreements are established by the developer and transferred through a transparent legal process to the HOA. Developers go out of business all the time, so its not reasonable to expect them to be around 10 years from now to do the maintenance. I'm puzzled by your suggestion that I should be responsible for paying for treating the stormwater runoff from your home and neighborhood. Should I also pay your water and sewer bill too? No thanks. That's your responsibility. Not mine, not the government. You can call it an unfunded mandate if you like, but that doesn't change the reality that what you are proposing would be both unfair to taxpayers and not work in the real world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight
Personality conflicts? Puhhlease. This isn't "my HOA". This is EVERY HOA.
Name another "non-profit" that spends its entire time threatening, harassing, "fining", filing lawsuits against, and foreclosing against its own members/
Yes personality conflicts. Why do you assume everyone is troubled like you? I've never been harassed by my HOA. I'm not on the board. So EVERY HOA? Really? Hyperbole much?
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Originally Posted by IC_deLight
Yet none of your arguments support the proposition that an HOA corporation is needed nor why this shouldn't be a cost borne by local government and all the taxpayers.
Actually ALL of my arguements support why an HOA is needed and why the cost SHOULD NOT be borne by local governments and all taxpayers. (See Above)
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Originally Posted by IC_deLight
If this was a necessary reason for HOAs then why doesn't the statute that mandate them obligate the HOA corporation to maintain stormwater treatment systems?
Because those requirements are handled through local ordinances. You seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Go look them up in your town/city.
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Originally Posted by IC_deLight
Where in the statutory scheme even in your state does the law obligate the HOA corporation to maintain the stormwater retention features you proclaim the HOA to be necessary for?
Local Ordinances - Which local governments have the authority to impose - See Above
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight
Also it is not necessarily "polluting". Slowing down the effects of torrents of water due to large amounts of rainfall is not pollution control so much as it is attempting to prevent erosion and damage from water movement. It didn't stop "pollution" nor did it stop water from getting into creeks and streams which by the way get plenty of runoff from sources other than "neighborhoods" to begin with.
Ok, so you clearly don't know what you are talking about since the stormwater treatment required isn't just about volume control. It's also about reducing the amount of pollutant like nutrients (nitrogen) and (Phosphorus) which come from the fertilizer that runs off lawns. This is considered pollution. Your neighborhood creates it and the people who live there are required to pay for the pollution you create - just like I am in my neighborhood. And yes, of course there are others sources besides our neighborhood. Don;t be silly. But there are separate requirements that address those. But since you are having a hard time wrapping your mind around this one source, it's probably best not to try and explain those other requirements to you.
So I'm going to leave this thread with a final thought. It's obvious the some HOA's are poorly run and cause conflicts among neighbors. But, that is a result of personalities. We are all adults here. One would hope neighbors could work together to resolve their difference. Clearly from the tone of this thread there are some out there that will never enjoy and HOA or feel that they are necessary. That's there prerogative. However, that doesn't mean that HOAs don't serve a purpose. You might disagree with that purpose, but it doesn't mean it isn't real. Thankfully life is all about choices. Even in a state like NC it is possible to find places to live that don't have HOAs. If you truly can't live in an HOA neighborhood nobody is going to force you to live there. You have a choice. But for some it's just easier to put on the tin foil hat, shake their tiny fists in the air, and come on city-data and complain.
Proper and enforced municipal/county zoning ordinances would have precluded the mobile home issue while shuttle van racing could, and should, be addressed by the police. The HOA situation appears to be the result of the government abdicating its responsibilities to private enterprise.
There are certainly other solutions to the problem described, but in Wake County NC (where this thread originated), neither of them would have been a problem in a planned /HOA community. Not sure about New Jersey, or that I care. This thread was moved out of a NC forum so I probably won't follow it going forward.
We did this in our HOA unfortunately because of abuse. We had homeowners who would put up Christmas lights then just leave them up year'round out of laziness or handicap or whathaveyou.
I stopped reading this thread about 20 pages ago, but I have a lot of neighbors that have what might be considered Christmas lights on their porches and decks (no blow up Santas, but white or colored twinkle lights). I love them and think it makes the neighborhood look festive.
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