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[San Diego, CA] I requested past board meeting minutes and those from all future meetings. Response:
"There will be a fee of $75 for the time to gather, scan, log and send for the 4 months and then each month there after will be $35."
The only relevant result I found with a search for "hoa charge minutes" was this one which states:
"There is nothing in the statute about charging the homeowner for "locating and copying the documents." This appears to be an association tactic to deter owners from accessing documents.
Civil Code section 1365.2(c) (4) states the association may bill the requesting member for the direct and actual cost of copying and mailing requested documents."
Does this also apply to HOA property management since they are working on behalf of the HOA? I would like to send them this link and tell them to shove it but I'm almost certain their response will be "we're property management and not the HOA itself so we can charge whatever we want."
What does your association documents say about this for owners? Many require the minutes to be made available to an owner either in person or through actual or electronic publishing. Your association documents may say you get one copy, or it may have a fixed fee, or it may have to be available to you for inspection in which case you bring a portable scanner.
They have the right to charge you, but their charge seems exorbitant and designed to deter you.
Section 5205 of the Code states that "The association may bill the requesting member for the direct and actual cost of copying and mailing requested documents. The association shall inform the member of the amount of the copying and mailing costs, and the member shall agree to pay those costs, before copying and sending the requested documents."
The next section sets out that they may charge a fee of $10 per hour to have individual details redacted from the minutes, so that would be a comparable starting point in terms of cost. I would point that out to them and ask them to produce documentation that demonstrates that it actually costs $75 for them to get someone to photocopy 4 sets of minutes or $35 to copy one set of minutes.
You can also just go to the Associations offices to inspect them. They must have a set available to homeowners (including previous years) and they can't charge for looking at them.
I have a couple questions - I handle document distribution for our subdivision and can share we have had some bizarre or extraneous requests.
OP, are you asking for minutes beyond 6 months before you took title? As a homeowner, you certainly are entitled to minutes while in ownership, and maybe the year prior. Each state is different as to who can request what documents and the reason for the request. I live in an HOA that was established in 1976. About once every 5 years, we get requests for minutes from 20 - 30 years ago. When that happens, we submit the request to our attorney and let him handle as he has the code regarding recordkeeping. But every once in a while, there's a homeowner not happy because they didn't follow the rules and don't want to correct a violation and now want to play a game of gotcha and asks for decades of documents.
Our minutes are now posted to a closed FB page, as well as, a private webpage for minutes from the past 2 years. By law, we must furnish minutes for 6 months prior to the request of the HOA resale package.
I would be curious to know how far back and the reason, only because my experience tells me there is more to the request. And, most of the time, the owner requesting the minutes has never attended an HOA meeting.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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Property management companies normally charge a flat monthly amount as stated in the contract with the owners (HOA) and additional time spent on work not covered by that contract is billed at a specified hourly rate. I would consider this to be something that would take about an hour. I'm in commercial real estate, and the people that work for me who would do this sort of work make about $26-35/hour, with benefits and overhead, we'd be losing money if we charged only $55/hour.
Their stated $75 + $35 for additional seems to be reasonable, maybe a little high. You always had the opportunity to attend the meetings and take notes yourself at no cost. I personally would never live in a place with an HOA for many reasons, but the cost of archival documents wouldn't be anywhere near the top of the list.
Tell them you only wish to view/examine the minutes, in their office.....free. As for taking a copy with you, use your phone or portable scanner, etc. They may or may not honor your request as they are a mgmt company, and they do not work for free.
Its good policy for the HOA keep a simply website on something like blogger for free and post all PDF documents to the site as they are ready. When anyone asks for anything, they can simply go to the web site and help themselves, no staff, no time, no arguments needed.
What documents/information must be provided, other than a year end financial statement, can vary widely from state to state. CA and FL are the most regulated. In some states, meeting minutes do not even have to be released.
Typically charges are implemented for two reasons. The first being there is often time and labor necessary to produce such documents, especially in an non-automated association. Afterall, someone must search for and copy the information. The 2nd reason is to prevent capricious demands (witch hunts) or at least, make them costly.
Some information is private and must be redacted which is another time and labor issue.
At our recent Annual Meeting an owner asked about scanning all the paper information the HOA had prior to hiring an MC. The owner was told the HOA was all for this but who was going to pay for it? The owner said well the HOA of course. A show of hands was asked for about the HOA paying for such. I think 2 or 3 voted Yes. The rest in attendance (over 50) voted no.
The MC told the owner they had some 20 boxes of old paperwork and the owner could sort through it and make copies (at their expense) anytime they wished to do so during normal business hours. That ended the conversation. 6 months later, the MC later said they have heard no more from that owner.
[San Diego, CA]
Does this also apply to HOA property management since they are working on behalf of the HOA? I would like to send them this link and tell them to shove it but I'm almost certain their response will be "we're property management and not the HOA itself so we can charge whatever we want."
Any advice on what to do here?
Do not get me started on property management companies . . .
In one sense, they serve a real purpose, in that they professionally manage HOA's, create an easy way to obtain repairs for condos, facilitate timely HOA payments, create and maintain realistic budgets with the approval of the HOA, etc., etc. Many also maintain websites for the community, including private areas for owners.
On the other hand, some of them really stick it to both owners and prospective buyers with absolutely ridiculous fees for mundane items. $200 for an HOA letter required for closing, $350 for an ELECTRONIC set of CCRs/bylaws.?! The question you need to put to your HOA is: Is the HOA getting a kickback on a portion of these fees, and is therefore using them as a profit center/contribution to reserves, etc? Or is this something that the property management company is using solely as a profit center? Property management companies rarely do stuff like this without the OK of the HOA, so start with your HOA and work from there.
Don't forget that the property management company is hired by the HOA to take care of management chores that the HOA choses not to deal with. (In most cases, that's probably a good thing :-) As such, if you don't like how the property management company is managing, it's something to take up with the HOA Board of Directors. Don't confuse the HOA Board with the property management company -- they are NOT the same thing.
To solve your immediate problem, ask someone on the Board for a copy of the minutes.
At our recent Annual Meeting an owner asked about scanning all the paper information the HOA had prior to hiring an MC. The owner was told the HOA was all for this but who was going to pay for it?
I scanned three boxes of old HOA docs myself into PDF's with filenames such as the date xx.xx.xx and tiny description such as invoice, minutes, etc. Took a couple hours a night for a week or so. I did it while I watched tv in the background. FREE. Really not a big deal, and it never needs to be done again.
Next time people want something done, see if they want to volunteer to do it. It doesn't have to cost ANYTHING.
Unless everyone is lazy, incompetent or incapable of learning how to learn something new like use a scanner.
The documents may already be online for your viewing. Check with your HOA. As for the fees, these are usually listed in your HOA documents. The property management company has a contract with the HOA not you. They have a right to charge you for their services. Don't like it? Don't get the old minutes. People don't work for free. Chances are you get paid for doing your job so why wouldn't a management company? Especially when their contract isn't with you.
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