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Old 01-18-2018, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,708 posts, read 79,764,742 times
Reputation: 39453

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Why newer homes tend to have lower quality is a factor of our society, values and technology.

Homes are no longer seen as a family estate for the next five generations to live in. It is a temporary dwelling you will probably leave in a decade or two, maybe less. Quality and craftsmanship are no longer vallued and people are not willing to pay for it.

What people want is more square footage and more glitz and glamour. And they want it right now. They do not want to have to save up for it.

The solution is to make houses as large and glitzy as possible within an acceptable price range. They way to do that is to apply assembly line techniques building hundreds or thousands of very simlar homes at a time. Instead of craftsman who know what they are doing, they employ tool operators who do what they are told. You would be surprised how few people on a construction site can read a set of plans or have any idea of why they are doing what they are doing. Residential construction is a different world today.

We are still building mostly with wood, even though quality lumber is no longer available. The remaining old growth timber is protected. Instead they force weaker species of trees to grow really fast. This produces low quality and very inconsistent lumber, but it is plentiful and cheap. You may get all decent lumber in your home, yu may get all garbage lumber. You may get a mix. No one will know what you got. Only time will tell. The construction workers do not sort through the lumber and toss out the junk only using the better stronger wood. They grab a piece and put it in.

even custom construction does not mean you get good lumber. They cannot sort through a shipment and only use 1/3 of it and send the rest back. You can slightly improve quality by using larger sized lumber. A crappy 2x6 is still crappy, but it is better than a crappy 2x4.

There are solutions. We have steel studs, composite materials, concrete, plastics, all kinds of alternatives. We just do not use them. Primarily because our residential construction industry is primed to build with wood. Why buy new tools and train or retrain new crews when people will buy poorly built wood houses using the tolls and crews you already have?

In order to keep prices down and glam up, they use high tech engineering to cheapen out all the things you cannot see right to the lowest allowable level. Drywall is now so thin and weak you can walk right through it, or push your thumb through. In the old days they knew less about how strong they needed to make things, so they tended to just make them really super strong. Now they can engineer them right to the limit. They build the home to last 30 years. However that is assuming normal weather conditions, materials that consistently meet the average quality for those materials or better, no mistakes by nail gun operators or skill saw operators or a superintendent who is tired and not paying attention. If all of the assumptions prove true, you get a house that will last 30 years and possibly considerably longer. If any of those assumptions fail, you get problems. Your house can still last 30 years or possibly even 50 or more, but you will need to do some repairs.

Many things are done to make the work go faster. If 600 guys can build a hundred homes in three weeks instead of five, all of the homes will be cheaper. that means you can afford more square footage which is what really matters. Thus we use lightweight trusses instead of framed rafters. Faster by far and they hold up just as well (unless there is a fire or a huge snow load). Hangers and steel joining plates are commonly used in place of nails - way faster and works fine (unless there is a fire or unusual twisty loads, or the wood is really soft). Nail guns can shoot in a half dozen small wire nails rather than pounding in three nails in much more time, and the nail gun nails will hold almost as well in most situations. It is all about fast fast fast because labor is expensive and real estate sales are all about square footage and glam.

Balanced against that new technology has allowed us to build smarter. We know a lot more abut the importance of drainage and how to insure it happens. Electrical advances protect us against our own stupidity. roofing materials have improved substantially.

Houses are also designed to reduce maintenance. Vinyl or PVC windows will not last as long as well maintained wood windows, but they also require little or no maintenance. Plain plastic doors stay clean by themselves, no need to remove dust and grime that attaches to those pretty molded wood doors. Plastics in flooring or carpeting never need refinishing. Fireplaces that make no heat, also make almost no threat of burning down a house if you do something stupid. Granite counter tops and stainless steel never need refinishing sanding, oiling or anything other than a quick wipe. Plastic piping and sewer lines rarely leak or break.

So there are some quality advantages in newer homes. What most people are referring to when they say qulity is found only in older homes is the bones the structure, not the finish, and not technology.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Saint John, IN
11,583 posts, read 6,729,146 times
Reputation: 14786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Why newer homes tend to have lower quality is a factor of our society, values and technology.

Homes are no longer seen as a family estate for the next five generations to live in. It is a temporary dwelling you will probably leave in a decade or two, maybe less. Quality and craftsmanship are no longer vallued and people are not willing to pay for it.

What people want is more square footage and more glitz and glamour. And they want it right now. They do not want to have to save up for it.

The solution is to make houses as large and glitzy as possible within an acceptable price range. They way to do that is to apply assembly line techniques building hundreds or thousands of very simlar homes at a time. Instead of craftsman who know what they are doing, they employ tool operators who do what they are told. You would be surprised how few people on a construction site can read a set of plans or have any idea of why they are doing what they are doing. Residential construction is a different world today.

We are still building mostly with wood, even though quality lumber is no longer available. The remaining old growth timber is protected. Instead they force weaker species of trees to grow really fast. This produces low quality and very inconsistent lumber, but it is plentiful and cheap. You may get all decent lumber in your home, yu may get all garbage lumber. You may get a mix. No one will know what you got. Only time will tell. The construction workers do not sort through the lumber and toss out the junk only using the better stronger wood. They grab a piece and put it in.

even custom construction does not mean you get good lumber. They cannot sort through a shipment and only use 1/3 of it and send the rest back. You can slightly improve quality by using larger sized lumber. A crappy 2x6 is still crappy, but it is better than a crappy 2x4.

There are solutions. We have steel studs, composite materials, concrete, plastics, all kinds of alternatives. We just do not use them. Primarily because our residential construction industry is primed to build with wood. Why buy new tools and train or retrain new crews when people will buy poorly built wood houses using the tolls and crews you already have?

In order to keep prices down and glam up, they use high tech engineering to cheapen out all the things you cannot see right to the lowest allowable level. Drywall is now so thin and weak you can walk right through it, or push your thumb through. In the old days they knew less about how strong they needed to make things, so they tended to just make them really super strong. Now they can engineer them right to the limit. They build the home to last 30 years. However that is assuming normal weather conditions, materials that consistently meet the average quality for those materials or better, no mistakes by nail gun operators or skill saw operators or a superintendent who is tired and not paying attention. If all of the assumptions prove true, you get a house that will last 30 years and possibly considerably longer. If any of those assumptions fail, you get problems. Your house can still last 30 years or possibly even 50 or more, but you will need to do some repairs.

Many things are done to make the work go faster. If 600 guys can build a hundred homes in three weeks instead of five, all of the homes will be cheaper. that means you can afford more square footage which is what really matters. Thus we use lightweight trusses instead of framed rafters. Faster by far and they hold up just as well (unless there is a fire or a huge snow load). Hangers and steel joining plates are commonly used in place of nails - way faster and works fine (unless there is a fire or unusual twisty loads, or the wood is really soft). Nail guns can shoot in a half dozen small wire nails rather than pounding in three nails in much more time, and the nail gun nails will hold almost as well in most situations. It is all about fast fast fast because labor is expensive and real estate sales are all about square footage and glam.

Balanced against that new technology has allowed us to build smarter. We know a lot more abut the importance of drainage and how to insure it happens. Electrical advances protect us against our own stupidity. roofing materials have improved substantially.

Houses are also designed to reduce maintenance. Vinyl or PVC windows will not last as long as well maintained wood windows, but they also require little or no maintenance. Plain plastic doors stay clean by themselves, no need to remove dust and grime that attaches to those pretty molded wood doors. Plastics in flooring or carpeting never need refinishing. Fireplaces that make no heat, also make almost no threat of burning down a house if you do something stupid. Granite counter tops and stainless steel never need refinishing sanding, oiling or anything other than a quick wipe. Plastic piping and sewer lines rarely leak or break.

So there are some quality advantages in newer homes. What most people are referring to when they say qulity is found only in older homes is the bones the structure, not the finish, and not technology.


Actually I think your references in regards to everyone wants more square footage is false. That's what everyone wanted between 2000-2008, but once market crashed people realized they didn't need all that wasted space! Most new homes in our area that are being built are now around 2,100-2,700 sq ft, unlike before when most new home builders were building homes starting at 3,000 sq ft.


I also agree with Oldtrader that just because it's a track home builder and not custom doesn't mean it's not good quality or not better quality than an older home. Personally we buy new every time we move. Have built 2 homes in the past and bought a spec home last year. Every time we buy, the new home is more energy efficient than the last. Our last home was in what we called tornado alley and not once did we need our roof or siding replaced unlike other homes in subdivisions nearby. Never had a problem with drafts from windows and our insulation is better than it was in homes 50 years ago. We also don't have to worry about things like lead paint or asbestos.


As far as design, well that's just a preference. Personally, we like the high ceilings and open concept layout that we have in our new build. We still have crown molding in most of our rooms and an arched ceiling in our front room so there is some character.
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
13,447 posts, read 15,466,742 times
Reputation: 18992
Yup. After living a good chunk of my life in NYC apartments that were barely 1100 sq ft, yeah, I'm all about the square footage. I wanted space and good build quality. I wanted a large lot too. Sue me. And let's not kid ourselves, people still want those things. We had no problem selling our large tract house in 2015 - it was to a military family that had five kids. Our home was exactly what they were looking for.

As for "saving up", well McMansions aren't necessarily cheap in price.
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,708 posts, read 79,764,742 times
Reputation: 39453
Quote:
Originally Posted by riaelise View Post

As for "saving up", well McMansions aren't necessarily cheap in price.
They are compared to what they would cost if built with quality materials and craftsmanship, or designed to last 100 plus years. Or if they had rooms inside instead of warehouse space. Or if they were each unique instead of repeated elements in differing combinations. Or if they built them one by one on individual properties instead of a tract. Or if they left trees, streams, hills, and the like in place.

There were a few subdivisions where they built somewhat like old craftsmanship.One in particular impressed me is in Beaumont SC. They nestled the houses between trees rather than removing everything and starting with a flat plain. They copied a nearby antebellum neighborhood in layout and architecture. the houses had real porches and the neighborhood was made for walking and greeting your neighbors. It was a big success, but it was mongo expensive. Way more than track Mcmansion homes with more square footage and tiny flat cleared lots. It is not perfect, they made some concession to productivity. The houses are made of wood and the wood available was already garbage by then (they did use larger sizes in most of the homes). Still it is probably the nicest post 1950s subdivision I have ever seen. But they are expensive in a big way.
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
13,447 posts, read 15,466,742 times
Reputation: 18992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
They are compared to what they would cost if built with quality materials and craftsmanship, or designed to last 100 plus years. Or if they had rooms inside instead of warehouse space. Or if they were each unique instead of repeated elements in differing combinations. Or if they built them one by one on individual properties instead of a tract. Or if they left trees, streams, hills, and the like in place.

There were a few subdivisions where they built somewhat like old craftsmanship.One in particular impressed me is in Beaumont SC. They nestled the houses between trees rather than removing everything and starting with a flat plain. They copied a nearby antebellum neighborhood in layout and architecture. the houses had real porches and the neighborhood was made for walking and greeting your neighbors. It was a big success, but it was mongo expensive. Way more than track Mcmansion homes with more square footage and tiny flat cleared lots. It is not perfect, they made some concession to productivity. The houses are made of wood and the wood available was already garbage by then (they did use larger sizes in most of the homes). Still it is probably the nicest post 1950s subdivision I have ever seen. But they are expensive in a big way.
That sounds romantic, but a few things:

it's not feasible for many homes to be built on individual properties any more. there's more money to be made selling your 45 acres to a developer/builder and then subdivide.

you have no way of knowing how long those homes will last.

the open floor plan is not reflective of build quality.

people don't really sit on porches and all that anymore, even in Mayberry. I can tell you that we don't sit on our porch here in Texas, with mosquitoes, heat, and all.

"quality materials" can be left up for debate, you know.

Bottom line: folks love to romanticize older homes. I like them as much as the next person, but they're not a shoe-in for quality just because they have thicker walls or gnarly wood flooring. Or distinct architecture.

as for subdivisions, there are many types of subdivisions. there's not one home in my neighborhood that repeats, the lots are at least a half acre, trees outnumber people. Homes built circa 80s and 90s.
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