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Old 04-09-2018, 02:16 AM
 
1,528 posts, read 728,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconheadWest View Post
...

Your second complaint is that the sellers did an upgrade to the house, and though there is no issue, you expected them to disclose a non-issue?

Doesn't sound like you want the house as these are non-issues. You only need to disclose current and on-going issues with a house that you are aware of. If the seller caught the frozen pipe and remedied the situation, there is nothing to disclose as there is no current issue.

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconheadWest View Post
Are you speaking about me? I did not mock, nor did I say it should be disclosed. I said the complete opposite. There is no current issue or damage to disclose since it's been remedied, so I said it wasn't necessary to disclose. Just as a previous roof leak wouldn't need to be disclosed if a new (repaired) roof and decking was put on and all damage remedied. It's not currently leaking and there's nothing to say the new/repaired roof would leak like the old roof... however, if there was an insurance claim on it, then they would need to disclose they made a claim.
Yes, you were the one who said that nothing would have had to be disclosed as it was not a current issue - without even knowing the state at that time. And it was wrong and reckless advice to give a consumer. Even your state requires disclosure of some repairs where there are no current issues - e.g. previous structural or roof repairs do need to be disclosed so I have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you're trying to say that a full roof replacement including all decking, etc doesn't? I'm not going to split hairs on that - the principle even in TX is that some previous repairs (e.g. roof repairs) do need disclosure. Other states (including the OP's state) also do require disclosure of repaired things depending on what they are so it's very bad advice to just be telling consumers, regardless of state, that anything that has been repaired and is not a current issues doesn't need disclosure. Simply wrong and irresponsible for a licensed agent. People can get into big trouble if they follow that advice. Even the OP thanked you for 'educating' her when presumably she assumed that a licensed agent would not give blatently wrong information.

I won't argue the mocking tone but that's certainly how i perceived it. At least arrogant. ---"though there is no issue, you expected them to disclose a non-issue?" But I won't argue that one.The reckless and wrong advice is more serious.
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Old 04-09-2018, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
13,201 posts, read 7,417,828 times
Reputation: 27313
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Any advice for me? We've discovered some latent, hidden damage on the final walk through. We're scheduled to close this coming week.

The house is about 10 years old, and seemed to be in pretty good condition. The seller's disclosure didn't mention the following, and they were not observable until today (final walk through):
  1. Many of the sheetrock walls have hidden damage. It was hidden by artwork that was hung when we saw the house & had an inspector evaluate it. Now, of course, the artwork has been removed along with the seller's furniture. The nature of the damage: it looks like they had a not-very-good handyman (instead of a drywall/painting contractor) try to touch up the picture hook nail holes, but made it quite worse. Now there are large (2' by 3') areas on most every wall that no longer match. They are pretty dramatically ugly. Again, this is not just in one spot - it everywhere throughout the house.

    The seller -- who was there for the final walkthrough -- verbally said they had someone do repair work on them in an attempt to make them better - indicating acknowledgement of undisclosed damage.

  2. The seller told us during the final walk through that the reason the tile in the master shower has a mosaic inlaid in a wall is because that is where the showerheads used to be. The showerheads, valves, and piping were moved from one side of the shower that is on an exterior wall to the other side of the shower that is on an interior wall, because the water supply pipe in the exterior wall froze.

    This was nowhere mentioned in the seller's disclosure.

This is a "seller's market." We raised these with our real estate agent (not a very good one, we have learned), asking for some form of hold-back of the funds in escrow from which we will have the walls repaired/repainted. Our agent tells us the seller's agent said essentially "we won't repair anything. Close, don't close, we don't care. We think we sold it under market and can sell it to the next person who drives by."

The dollars involved are not trivial -- I say this because a friend got a quote to repaint the interior of his house (2 story, 2800sf) for $30K. Yes, that is a lot - but in this community every contractor & tradesman is booked out for an extended period of time - so they of course raise their prices.

What are my options? I assume I can either close or not-close. If I close, can I then repair everything and sue the seller for reimbursement? Is there some way I can apply pressure to the seller to either repair or give me a credit for the repair?

Or, because it is a seller's market, do I just eat it?

Oh - the seller's agent and my agent work for the same brokerage in the same office (Sotheby's)
Seller's disclosure discusses major problems: wood destroying insects, flooding, foundation issues, etc. Thus the seller would not be required to disclose it. What you're talking about sounds decorative, which should be repaired pretty easily and cheaply. Here, the inspector is not required to look behind walls. That's asking for X-ray vision. They do not address cosmetic issues. Home inspections address safety and structural problems, things that affect the function of the home, not factors affecting looks. Hideous paint, dated kitchens, and dark, cavernous living rooms are irrelevant to such an assessment. And painting should not cost anywhere near $30K. I got my house painted for $5K and it was a similar size and two story, but things are cheaper here in Texas than most states.

In any event, you should have addressed painting beforehand. If anyone quotes you that, you should get another estimate. You would probably lose a case in court, but you could try to negotiate a discount with the seller although you would probably lose on that count too. DISCLAIMER: Requirements are different for different states, so check to see what is required in your state.
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Old 04-09-2018, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,685 posts, read 9,451,486 times
Reputation: 14953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek_Freek View Post
Seems it would be cheaper to hire someone in Vegas and pay their travel costs. If it's a temptation DM lvmench. He knows people.
I've thought of the same thing. I do have a relationship with a painter there who has done sheetrock & paint repair on our house there, and I trust his work. He worked on our Henderson house for months, repairing the walls as others tradesmen had to make repairs in items behind the walls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek_Freek View Post
I thought you were a bit of a DIY guy. Flat walls and paint matching aren't that tough. Any paint store can shoot a sample of the wall color and match it. Cut a 1"x1" piece out somewhere (you're already fixing the walls) and take it to them.
I've also thought of that. If it were just a few bedroom walls with 8' or 10' ceilings, I would probably tackle it myself. But the entry, living room, dining room and a few others have soaring 30' ceilings. That's a bunch of scaffolding work that is beyond my comfort zone. And yes, there is a ton of damage on those walls, and I anticipate a corner-to-corner repaint.

Sometimes paint match isn't that simple. In our Nevada house (a new custom build), the paint was Frazee. At some point, Frazee was acquired by Sherwin Williams, and afterwards, their paint would only sort-of-match. Looked dead-on, the color was right, but from a mild or severe angle, it wouldn't. Moreover the Sherwin Williams rebranded paint didn't perform in the real world. The paint was marketed as one that was washable to remove minor marks and smudges, but even the mildest possible wipe of the paint left it "burnished."

The Sherwin Williams factory product engineers and application engineers and HQ product management team all said "we just weren't doing it right." So they came to our house to teach us the proper technique - and the paint failed when they tried to do anything. They cut a 1' by 1' section of the sheetrock & sent it back to their factory labs for analysis. The analysis didn't find anything amiss - the paint seemed to be OK and had been applied at the proper thickness, etc.

Sherwin Williams -- at their expense! -- offered to repaint the entire interior of the house with their top-of-the-line interior paint. Their application engineers were on site during the repaint, and spent the first morning with the actual painters, instructing them on a specific technique to prepare and paint that was different than what painters would normally do.

The repaint took about 3 weeks with a team of about 6 or 8 painters including helpers. That includes all the masking and tarping, cleanup, etc.

Last edited by SportyandMisty; 04-09-2018 at 08:02 AM..
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Old 04-09-2018, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,685 posts, read 9,451,486 times
Reputation: 14953
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeIsGood01 View Post
They moved the shower to an inside wall so it won't freeze and put a mosaic where the old one was taken out, what you should do is thank them.
Thanks for your advice. My concern wasn't that they moved plumbing. My concern was that the seller verbally told me "yeah, we had to move the plumbing because the pipes froze." In this state, the seller disclosure indicates any past or present or ongoing" problems or words to that effect.

My concern was I was hearing what in my mind is a discloseable item that hadn't been disclosed. This in turn begs the question, "what else should have been disclosed but wasn't?"

Others have pointed out that pipes freezing, in and of themselves, may not be a disclosable item as they may have frozen without bursting.
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,685 posts, read 9,451,486 times
Reputation: 14953
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvmensch View Post
Comeon S&M...You are much more resourceful than this.

You do not pay $30K for the interior of a 10k SF house. 1/3 that. If the Park City Locals are socking it to you hire a crew out out SLC or elsewhere. You can put them up for a week for a couple of grand. Or have them camp in the house. Set up a dormitory in a house that size.
A funny thing happens when any tradesman from SLC or Ogden or Orem/Provo comes up the hill to Park City: their rates go up quite a bit. Ditto for contractors driving in from Wyoming. (The house is 7K sf btw.)

Regardless, as you point out, there are many ways to skin a cat.
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,685 posts, read 9,451,486 times
Reputation: 14953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Informed Info View Post
That isn't hidden damage. That's normal. You aren't buying a new construction house. What exactly did you think was holding the "artwork" up on the walls? Magic?
Part of the reason for my original post is to get the type of feedback you provide, and perspective from real estate agents who see many more transactions over the course of a few months than I will over my entire life.

I wish I had snapped a few cell phone pics, but I didn't. I would post them. I think even in a cell phone pic, most everyone would say, "wow - that's really f'd up. Where the heck did they find someone so incompetent?" But, alas, I have nothing to post.
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:12 AM
 
249 posts, read 151,603 times
Reputation: 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by just_because View Post
In case anyone missed it, the Utah disclosure requirement also says:

Please describe, to your knowledge, any attempts to repair any moisture−related damage and/or to prevent any recurrence of water and moisture−related problems on the Property:

Rerouting the pipes in the shower was repairing a water related problem even if nothing burst. Pipes in a home used and heated normally should not freeze unless there is a construction or design defect (i.e. 'problem').

Not a legal opinion on Utah disclosure, just reading the language in their form and that suggests that it would need to have been disclosed. It was not done for cosmetic purposes or to put in another type of shower, etc. it was done to repair a problem and to prevent recurrence of that problem (pretty much exactly as the disclosure form says).

What I see is a lack of an original problem, in order to qualify the moving of the pipes in order to prevent a RECURRENCE. Water freezing in pipes is not a problem; pipes BURSTING from frozen water inside of them is a problem. In our northern climate, we keep the tap going just a bit on the days it's -15. Or put a space heater in the room and keep the vanity doors open. It's not a big deal, to us... it's common practice. "It's gonna be cold tonight; did you open the cupboards and turn on the space heater? Thanks!" Before we started doing this, we'd wake up and find the water hardly coming out of the tap... CLOSE to freezing through and bursting... but didn't burst. Friends and family told us what to do. Works great.

The sellers likely didn't want to do that and moved the pipes to an interior wall in order to prevent an actual problem, like having those pipes burst.
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Columbia SC
7,974 posts, read 6,732,133 times
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Relocating the shower head from an external wall to an internal wall to stop the water suppl line from freezing does not meet the section you are posting. What you are posting covers leaks.

Stop your whining and buy or walk away.
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Old 04-09-2018, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Rochester, WA
3,840 posts, read 2,061,340 times
Reputation: 10582
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Part of the reason for my original post is to get the type of feedback you provide, and perspective from real estate agents who see many more transactions over the course of a few months than I will over my entire life.

I wish I had snapped a few cell phone pics, but I didn't. I would post them. I think even in a cell phone pic, most everyone would say, "wow - that's really f'd up. Where the heck did they find someone so incompetent?" But, alas, I have nothing to post.
It would probably help us all to see pictures, but I'll take your word for it that they did a bad job at the repair. If it was truly just a few nail marks, you probably wouldn't be here, and I don't think you should be beat up for asking, especially by folks that aren't reading carefully.

The big picture truth is, though, at this point, trying to renegotiate for small stuff often has negative returns and can blow up, as everyone feels pressed and patience runs thin. Your broker is the best one to measure that mood, and that outcome. It sounds like you already asked, and the answer was no. Your remedies now are limited if you still want the house.
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Old 04-09-2018, 10:33 AM
 
1,681 posts, read 3,047,544 times
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Both these issues are extremely minor. Just get someone in to patch the walls in a manner you prefer. It's not uncommon to find this, however having a 2'x3' section is unusually large. This should be fairly inexpensive in the grand scheme of things.

In terms of the shower heads, I wouldn't interpret that as requiring disclosure. Just because a pipe froze, doesn't mean there was moisture damage. I'd be way more concerned about a small in wall leak that went on for years versus a pipe freeze which was almost certainly fixed quickly.
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