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Old 06-19-2009, 07:27 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 38,073,112 times
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INteresting. Thanks Edgewater. Learned something.

However if the property did in fact flood after structure was up I would think the OP still has a very powerful case. I would think that was clearly disclosable particularly in light of the proposed change in the flood plan.
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Old 06-19-2009, 07:32 PM
 
19 posts, read 60,983 times
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Edgewood39,

I have the the CLOMR case number and called FEMA as you suggested. They have no LOMR information associated with this case number. We tried the subdivision name as well but nothing came up. Basically I can't find any information concerning the LOMR application the developer said they submitted. Not sure where else to look.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:44 AM
 
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Default update

It is next to impossible to find a lawyer around here. This is a fairly small community on Maui and all the lawyers claim to have a conflict on interest based on a prior relationship with the developer. If anyone knows a lawyer that can work on Maui, contact me.
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:34 PM
 
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So I finally found a lawyer. Now I need a price point to start the lawsuit. Is there any way to calculate the loss in property value associated with being in a flood zone?

I need to come up with a figure that shows the drop in property value in a flood zone vs. the value of the property out of a flood zone. Any ideas?

One of the costs I'm going after is the cost of flood insurance over the life of the loan. I would like to add the decline in property value as well. Any helps is appreciated.
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Tempe, Arizona
4,511 posts, read 13,533,886 times
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Consult with an appraiser in your area.
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Fuquay Varina
6,420 posts, read 9,735,062 times
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You should also contact any neighbors that are in the same flood zone, including the one you mentioned before that was told the same thing. Get everyone on board with the lawsuit and get things right for everyone.
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Old 01-28-2010, 04:20 PM
 
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class action seems to be the way to go for the Maui neighborhood--
and frankly if you had issues with water invading your HOUSE vs lot before you took occupancy I think you need to get structural inspection to make sure there are no issues with mold or damaged wiring in areas not open to view...

we live in the DFW area of TX and are original owners of home built 25 yrs on on land that borders a storm water channel--basically this is a ditch (not engineered or concreted while the development was being built and not done later by the city/water control board) --that is used to channel storm water runoff to a larger natural creek north of our house but also down-grade...something relatively unusual apparently...

anyway we own land to the middle of the creek bed (give or take a few feet) but there is easement there and no building--the house is set back from there as you would imagine--there is probably 7 or 8 feet of land before our fence/wall start--we have a corner lot and our driveway comes off it with attached garage which is basically between house and ditch

this is a long street in the neighborhood--probably 40 homes on either side of the creek/ditch in two long blocks...
everyone did his own thing when the house was bought--the developer did not come back after construction was done and make the same angle or grade the ditch -- the city has tried couple of times to make it better channel but without much luck
there are low/high places along the bed with debris like big concrete pieces from time of construction when the cement mixers washed out their mixers I think...during the summer when it is pretty dry there are pockets of stagnant water which breed mosquitos...so you would think the city would be more worried about doing something to stop that ---but money is always tight...

we had a railroad tie wall vs a natural slope (which people went with--including our neighbors to the left)
one guy has a large, flat 8 in thick slab of concrete lying down behind his fence--like a plate covering the ground so he has no open dirt/weeds to take care of...
some people have lot more erosion of their slopes than we do...

about 6 yrs ago the original railroad tie wall was failing and we had it taken out and a concrete wall--almost 4 ft high poured back there to replace it--it is not technically an "engineered wall" since an engineer did not do it-- it is not tall enough to require "engineering"/permit by city code--but it has footings and rebar and structural support--has held up fine ...between that wall and the creek bed we have graded our side to be fairly level, have bermuda planted and keep it mowed...something that most of our neighbors can't do because they don't have access to it and it is in such bad shape you would have to use weedeater or hand scyth/sling blade...

anyway--flood zone issue

we got letter this week from our mortgage company that our house is now in flood plain--(A)
when we bought in the early 80s survey was clear that it was not--and we have refinanced a couple of times during the interim and never had issue with being in flood plain---

we have had some terriffic rains during the years and NEVER has the water come higher than the banks where our back fence is--never came over the wall--never came up from the street into our front yard (which we had happen at our house in Houston more than 20 yrs ago)--

nothing from the city regarding the rezoning or from FEMA itself--although I knew more than year ago from posting in library that FEMA was reevaluating flood zones because we had torrential rains in 2007 in our area of TX--there were flash floods that killed people and wrecked homes--some houses were built too close to a creek and had their back yard fences/yards undercut and washed partly away
but none of that happened with us...
we have had no new construction anywhere close to our neighborhood that would throw more storm water into this system...

I called the city public works dept and spoke to nice guy who basically said FEMA makes the decisions--that it was possible to be what is in effect a waiver or reconsideration of FEMA findings but to do that you have to have survey done and know what the closest established level of flood height is
I know that is not technically the explanation--but this is new terminology to me...
He coul dnot give me that but he could make a copy of the FEMA map showing our house/immediate area because the flood zone line did come up into our garage...
He said that he though lots of houses in our neighborhood were affected by this--and two other neighborhoods in south part of our town were also changed into flood zone...
said that FEMA has not set a flood zone level for our neighborhood--that was lenthy process that required actually checking water flow speed in the channel and doing all kinds of math about flow rate and discharge rate...
he also made some oblique comment about the city making some change in past but did not elaborate as to what it was--they have added no sewer drains--done nothing except grade the channel about 5 yrs ago and that was pretty worthless because it did not get graded to flow better downstream when there is very slow water coming through it...
if there is strong water flow--then there is no problem moving the water along--but the bed is not smooth, evenly graded

today when I went to house to drop some stuff off for my son who lives there now (we moved last December to house in different town about 3 mi away and rent it to him)...there were green and blue flags (like irrigation flags) on both side of the street behind our house where the storm drains go into the rain channel...
there is a short bridge/street that goes across that rain channel into the second part of this neighborhood

Called FEMA yesterday as well-- that office is in Denton -- town about 40 min north of where we live--
apparently city public works guy gave me a supervisor's name because when the secretary answered and I explained why I was calling I got foisted off on someone who knew only his name and the FEMA mission and that was about it...

he did not know anything about why/what was different, what had changed to make our house more vulnerable now than 20 yrs or 2002 when prior map was put in force ---he did not know how to work the on-line FEMA maps to check info from 2002 map and current one--he did not know jack...

he even tried to tell me that we should have a survey of our house showing where the flood zone was (from when we closed more than 20 yrs ago)...and that a meets and bounds survey--just property lines--would be what I needed to have done--I said what good is that without topography/elevations--
Oh--he said...like that just crossed his mind...

Frankly if this is the kind of engineer that FEMA is hiring --I think we are in for lot of trouble

he said I needed to talk to Roberto--who was mapping whiz--and he could explain the difference--
but I know that a mapping guy is not an engineering guy who KNOWS WHY the change occurred--or at least should be able to find out what justification there was...
the mapping guy is just following the specs that are on the engineering info

have been busy doing something else today--but am going to call back tomorrow and try to talk to the original FEMA name I was given

the irony of this is that not all houses on either side of the creek were affected by this change--

people who are our immediate neighbors to the left (across a street) had the zone come right up to their garage wall apparently--
the people next to them had it come up into their garage--even though they are higher in elevation --you can tell when you walk down the sidewalk...
so it just seems to be a very arbitrary decision that is going to cost me money and loss in property values...

the other part of the irony is that now that it is too late and our area --not necessarily all homes--are in HIGH RISK flood zone any insurace is going to be more expensive--
if people had been told there was STRONG PROBABILITY that FEMA was changing our immediate area into A vs X which it used to be--we could have taken out flood insurance before we technically needed it--gotten a lower rate--and been able to keep that rate under the "grandfather" clause/policy
so not only did our CITY let us down but FEMA did as well
saw nothing in the paper any time recently either--almost like cloak and daggar stuff--don't let anyone know until after the fact so they can't raise a ruckus before hand...
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Old 07-02-2010, 06:10 PM
 
19 posts, read 60,983 times
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I thought I would provide an update to this long saga. Yesterday I just completed an ethics hearing against the Developers sales agent with the local REALTOR Association. No verdict yet but the sales agent and their lawyer had no defense. They blamed the developer who they claimed incorrectly informed them of the flood zone designation. I had enough evidence and contraditions based on e-mail communications and even within their own defense to squash this. They had no documentation that said FEMA, the State of Hawaii, or even their project engineers claimed it was officially rezoned. They also claimed that since the developer was in the process of a Letter of Map Revision (LOMR) to FEMA based on raising the base elevation of the subdivision with dirt fill, this satisfied the non-disclosure. The funny this is, 2 years later and the LOMR still hasn't been submitted. The realtor kept saying in e-mails that it had been but had no supporting documentation. Checked with FEMA, nothing.

Since they were blaming the developer, their strategy was to not call any witnesses from the developer so they could neither confirm nor deny what they told the realtor. This left them with no defense and me with the burden of proof. Luckily, they weren't very smart. I had all the documentation to prove they lied and turned the lack of witnesses around by saying the developer is trying to distance themselves from the realtor. (BTW, it was the realtor who filled out the disclosure statement and signed is on behalf of the developer). Other interesting note, the realtor's company is managed and owned by the developer based on records from the Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs in Hawaii. I also claimed as evidence that these are not 2 different companies but an extension of the developer.

The verdict will be released in a week or so. Next step is to force a settlement with the developer and realtor. Given that the developer is ultimately responsible for the disclosure, this should be easy. Like I said, they haven't been very smart and that could also cause them to attempt to prolong the case and not settle.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:47 PM
 
4 posts, read 7,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlivengo View Post
I thought I would provide an update to this long saga. Yesterday I just completed an ethics hearing against the Developers sales agent with the local REALTOR Association. No verdict yet but the sales agent and their lawyer had no defense. They blamed the developer who they claimed incorrectly informed them of the flood zone designation. I had enough evidence and contraditions based on e-mail communications and even within their own defense to squash this. They had no documentation that said FEMA, the State of Hawaii, or even their project engineers claimed it was officially rezoned. They also claimed that since the developer was in the process of a Letter of Map Revision (LOMR) to FEMA based on raising the base elevation of the subdivision with dirt fill, this satisfied the non-disclosure. The funny this is, 2 years later and the LOMR still hasn't been submitted. The realtor kept saying in e-mails that it had been but had no supporting documentation. Checked with FEMA, nothing.

Since they were blaming the developer, their strategy was to not call any witnesses from the developer so they could neither confirm nor deny what they told the realtor. This left them with no defense and me with the burden of proof. Luckily, they weren't very smart. I had all the documentation to prove they lied and turned the lack of witnesses around by saying the developer is trying to distance themselves from the realtor. (BTW, it was the realtor who filled out the disclosure statement and signed is on behalf of the developer). Other interesting note, the realtor's company is managed and owned by the developer based on records from the Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs in Hawaii. I also claimed as evidence that these are not 2 different companies but an extension of the developer.

The verdict will be released in a week or so. Next step is to force a settlement with the developer and realtor. Given that the developer is ultimately responsible for the disclosure, this should be easy. Like I said, they haven't been very smart and that could also cause them to attempt to prolong the case and not settle.
Any more updates?
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Old 05-20-2014, 08:30 PM
 
19 posts, read 60,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twitches View Post
Any more updates?
figured I would provide along overdue update. The Realtor association meeting went nowhere. The "jury" was made up of other realtors who are were scared to open fault against another realtor for issues such as flood zone. The agent for the developer just lied and lied and it came down to my word vs his. Developer refused to partake in the hearing so I couldn't exactly disprove the realtor.

Good news is that they painted themselves into a corner and after more discovery over the past few years, I have proof they all lied and intended to misrepresent the property near the start of the housing market collapse. It goes even further with using unlicensed contractors and other cases of fraud, lying to the planning commission on record, etc.. They blamed a lot of it on the market and said they were broke and couldn't complete the subdivision to spec. Anyway, finally after 5 years they are in the process of making a settlement offer. Should be wrapped up by this fall if their offer is sufficient enough or I proceed with the trial 6 months out.

A 3rd party, the engineer who planned the subdivision settled last year for a nice sum, enough to cover my legal fees and keep the fight going.
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