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My role changes multiple times a day as needed for and by: me, my husband, my children, our household and our business. However, that only works well when it's done in conjunction with my husband, who's role changes as needed too.
Outside of childbirth, I can't think of any other task or responsibility that has been predetermined to be his or mine. Having said that, I guess I'm still somewhat old-fashioned and have made choices, when needed, that are considered traditional choices. The key is that they were choices discussed with my husband but ultimately chosen by me.
My role changes multiple times a day as needed for and by: me, my husband, my children, our household and our business. However, that only works well when it's done in conjunction with my husband, who's role changes as needed too.
Outside of childbirth, I can't think of any other task or responsibility that has been predetermined to be his or mine. Having said that, I guess I'm still somewhat old-fashioned and have made choices, when needed, that are considered traditional choices. The key is that they were choices discussed with my husband but ultimately chosen by me.
I had something I was going to post in response to le roi but after reading your post, I have a better understanding. You have a valid point.
I do believe much of this problem is brought on by men themselves tho. It is generally men or at least initially that make an issue with other men expressing insecurities by the constant comparison to women or gays starting at an early age. Not to mention the macho attitude of having to prove yourself. Is it any wonder that women have also adopted this attitude toward men.
And now that women are able to get the same education, same jobs, same pay, support themselves, raise their own families, the things only men have been able to do, the automatic respect men have received for doing these things is gone so men are having to fight for that respect just as women have done.
I had something I was going to post in response to le roi but after reading your post, I have a better understanding. You have a valid point.
I do believe much of this problem is brought on by men themselves tho. It is generally men or at least initially that make an issue with other men expressing insecurities by the constant comparison to women or gays starting at an early age. Not to mention the macho attitude of having to prove yourself. Is it any wonder that women have also adopted this attitude toward men.
And now that women are able to get the same education, same jobs, same pay, support themselves, raise their own families, the things only men have been able to do, the automatic respect men have received for doing these things is gone so men are having to fight for that respect just as women have done.
What you say is exactly right, or at least a large part of the equation, I'll readily admit.
Wouldn't you say, upon examination, that women do the same thing to themselves? Merely a question of examining and figuring out how?
And while what you say is true with regard to machismo and male-proving among men, it's a BIT (not saying it's wrong, but it begs the question of whether it's true or not, [edit]: or rather, how true) presuppositional to say women adopt it because of men? Not saying women CAUSE it, or that men alone CAUSE it; this is long-term generational, and I've heard as many woman say to sons Big Boys/Men don't act that way as I have fathers tell their sons.
no, i don't know, although the other day i heard a woman say that men want "a maid, a mother, and a wh*re." i thought that was pretty funny and maybe true.
what i do know is that making an effort to figure out what the other person wants is important in a relationship for anyone.
If you don't know what men want then how do you know feminists are ignoring wants? As far as figuring out what the other person wants, I think that is touching on a specific dynamic in certain relationships. A lot of the time people don't need to figure it out; they just ask their partner and their partner shares. If such simple communication is absent from a relationship, well, that's a problem and a responsibility both have to share. I also don't think it has much to do with feminism, but intelligence (emotional and intellectual).
If you don't know what men want then how do you know feminists are ignoring wants?
Because I've observed a habit, where little or no effort is made on their part to understand the male perspective.
Let's look at her question as an example.
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Are women again being forced to choose between husbands and children vs. careers? Are men threatened by women who want more than that?
This is a question, technically, but it is often posed by feminists as an affirmative statement that "men are threatened by women who.. [insert lifestyle choice here]"
It seems to have never occured to them that fear plays no role in this, that maybe men just don't want women who make certain lifestyle choices. That is to say undesirable, as in, "go away because i am not interested."
The male counterpart might be the bitter guy who can't handle that many women want [for example] financial security and status, so "they're all a bunch of gold diggers." Whatever it is that a woman wants, there will always be a guy to complain about her choices and preferences and call them "unfair". This sort of fellow lacks empathy for what women go through, or rather, the challenges women face that create these preferences. Likewise, a lot of these feminists want to dictate to men what we should want, and they lack empathy for what men go through.
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As far as figuring out what the other person wants, I think that is touching on a specific dynamic in certain relationships. A lot of the time people don't need to figure it out; they just ask their partner and their partner shares. If such simple communication is absent from a relationship, well, that's a problem and a responsibility both have to share.
Sure.
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I also don't think it has much to do with feminism, but intelligence (emotional and intellectual).
I believe both are at work. Just personally, for example, I would have dated (and would date again) intelligent and reasonable feminists. However, I still categorize feminsts at-large as being out of touch with men, and lacking empathy outside their own gender.
He's talking about the way ANYTHING brought up as "what men want" -- without specifics or WITH specifics -- tends to get shoved aside.
Prime example: In another thread going in right now, one regarding a woman's sexual problems and proclivities (a particular woman, not "women") when it was revealed that the man in the scenario is embarrassed to attend counseling based on SEX, immediately two women dissed on him as both immature and a coward. NO mercy, no questioning as to why, they just went there instantly: Coward, lacking a pair, needing to grow up ("What is he, like 12? ")
Yet if a woman has any insecurity involving sex it's because "she needs understanding" or "she needs time" or "something has been done to her".
That kind of thing precisely, if you MUST have an example.
I'm having a hard time following. It's a bit of a mushy example, and I wasn't really expecting that. When I discussed with my husband, for example, what he wanted to study and do with his life, he told me. We then set out to make that a reality. He's a man. He told me what he wants. It's happening. That is what I was expecting to hear. Tangible desires/goals, I guess, that can be manifested, or not, depending on the health of a relationship.
Either way, the two women in that thread hardly represent women at large for generalizations or feminism. And sure, there will be posters giving some women understanding with this or that issue. OTOH, many simply choose not to participate in those discussions for a host of reasons, reasons that do not include acceptance or any amount of emotional goobly gock.
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What do men want, you ask?
They want to feel like they're worth something to someone, and they want to feel that way without having to fight for every single inch of respect every single day. It's NO different than what women want, we just deal with a differentset of social expectations than women.
And yet our social difficulties and expectations are dismissed casually as invalid because they're "whining" and "pathetic" and we're supposed to be busy admitting that women are the underdogs battling it out for their slice of the pie which men clearly have just taken by brute force all along, subjugating the gals, etc, etc. That's what's really important, right?
Whining is unattractive and immature regardless of gender. Children shouldn't do it. Adults shouldn't do it. Whining that is dependent on internet hyperbole is even more ridiculous.
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There are others, myriad in nature, varying from case to case based on personal preference and situations just as such things vary from woman to woman. le roi was speaking generally and wasn't even hostile about it.
Has someone taken his post as hostile? eta: I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet.
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But I WILL be wrong about this -- because I'm just a man.
Wrong according to who? I guess you'll always be wrong from some pov. That's the case for all of us. So what, tho?
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I'm sure YOU don't do that, and don't know any women who actually DO. No one ever does in here. It's all in the male imagination. Hell, it's practically a religious phenomenon.
I know one woman off line that generalizes against men. She's the only woman I know who is divorced. Typically, that type of rhetoric comes from people who haven't had much luck in relationships. You will also find several females on this forum that speak no differently than male-woman haters. So, I'm not sure why you think everyone denies their positions or what is in your imagination. Just because I'm not on board with you doesn't mean you're alone.
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I think the OP was opening a debate but it could easily be construed as centering on the bolded portion she was referencing: Why are women the pot instead of the soup? It goes right in line with what le roi was saying.
I still don't get it. Maybe I need to go back and re-read it.
Because I've observed a habit, where little or no effort is made on their part to understand the male perspective.
And that male perspective to be understood is clearly eluding me.
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This is a question, technically, but it is often posed by feminists as an affirmative statement that "men are threatened by women who.. [insert lifestyle choice here]"
It seems to have never occured to them that fear plays no role in this, that maybe men just don't want women who make certain lifestyle choices. That is to say undesirable, as in, "go away because i am not interested."
Well, I guess I think the question is silly and uninformed. So, any response to it is pretty pointless and any argument that results is just entertainment. Men and women marry their ilk, generally. This is what the data shows. Obviously, according to census, educated professional men are not threatened by educated professional women. While the question may be trolling, I still don't think generalizations about feminism are in order.
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I believe both are at work. Just personally, for example, I would (and have) dated intelligent and reasonable feminists. However, I still categorize feminsts at-large as being out of touch with men, and lacking empathy outside their own gender.
Ok. I'm sure you will partner up with a person that doesn't mind generalizations, who will perhaps have a few of her own. Different strokes.
hah, actually yes, that is the damn truth. i never seemed to get along well with the people who refuse to see social patterns.
Well, perhaps social patterns within your culture, which may be the mainstream. That may be why much of the rhetoric here is so odd to me. Perhaps I'm just not in touch with mainstream America, etc.
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