What "Rules" Need To Be Revised Or Thrown Out? (boyfriend, girl)

[ralphcifaretto]

Women only want to keep the rules that is in their favor. Simple as that. It has been shown over and over again.

Women say relationships work out best if the man is the chaser and initiates everything. Yet if a man said that relationships work out best if the man earns more money he would get so much stick from women.

Women thinks the man should do the asking and initiate all contact and put in all the effort. Yet if a man said that the woman should cook, clean, do the house chores and stuff like that he would get abused by women.

If I have to "chase" a woman and initiate everything and do all the work then I'll expect her to cook me dinner, clean my clothes and satisfy me sexually, and on top of that I have to make alot more money than she does After all that's the typical old fashioned rules.

Women who earns more money than the man and refuses to do any cooking, cleaning or any other old fashioned things, really shouldn't expect the man to do all the chasing and initiate everything. Women who think that gracing the man with her presence is enough really aren't relationship material and why any man would even bother to pursue a woman like that is beyond me.

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by OngletNYC

Since I am wrong about being risk-averse, what is the real reason why don't women routinely ask men out?

All my life I've seen women chase men...to the point of routine. I chased a number of my ex's. I do think culture plays a role here, which nixes inherent arguments imo.

Originally Posted by xxbabeechick

"Social norms" have nothing to do with what I find attractive in the opposite sex. I like to be firmly submissive, particularly at the onset of a relationship, a lot more than most women my age find comprehensible or personally palatable.

This sounds like a simple matter of kink. You're not alone by any stretch. There are millions of kinky people all over the globe.

Originally Posted by JustJulia

There are major drawbacks to traditional relationships; they don't just benefit women. For example, waiting for a man to ask you out or propose means you will only be able to choose among those who ask you. A man can ask any woman he has the guts to approach.

Yes, and the fact that we have a role play label "traditional" for this MO clearly shows me that it's not inherent at all.

[DennyCrane]

Originally Posted by OngletNYC

We humans are far more animalistic than we like to believe, and that when it comes to mating habits, that animalistic nature trumps intellect the vast majority of the time. Why else do so many 50 year old men still want to mate with 25 year old women? Nature at work, driving him towards her fertility, even though intellectually speaking he'd be better off with a woman his own age.

You see that as evidence that man's animalistic nature trumps his intellect. I see it as evidence that his brain is governing his behavior. In this case, his brain is telling him that being seen with a younger woman will improve his image and make him feel younger than he is. A 40something woman may see men like this and feel as though she's at a disadvantage when it comes to dating. But rather than thinking of it in those terms, why not be grateful that you've now spotted a man who's insecure and needs his ego stroked? Makes it a lot easier to recognize who the good options are.

Originally Posted by OngletNYC

I have actually fudged the truth with a guy I am currently seeing. He thinks I am broke and it's way better that way.

Do you really think that's better? I would hate to be with someone where I have to pretend to be something I'm not just to avoid damaging their ego. I would rather be with someone who has high self-confidence, whose self-image isn't dependent on me, my income, my career successes, etc.

Originally Posted by boodhabunny

The right man for OngletNYC won't be snatched up by another woman, the right man will appreciate her for who she is; otherwise he's not the right man, is he?

He could potentially be if she's waiting around for him to ask her out. While she's waiting, someone could ask him out. Or he may meet another woman who interests him. The right man for her won't care if she makes more money than him. If he does, then he's obviously not right for her.

Originally Posted by OngletNYC

Getting rid of this "rule" looks good on paper but the reality is, if the woman pays the man's way regularly, the man end up feeling emasculated. yeah yeah yeah, not you, you are the guy who is different, so on and so forth.

Even if this were true, why have a rule where you have to accommodate a man's ego? Doesn't that sort of defeat the point of being in a relationship? Part of being in one is to be free to be yourself.

Originally Posted by JustJulia

There are major drawbacks to traditional relationships; they don't just benefit women. For example, waiting for a man to ask you out or propose means you will only be able to choose among those who ask you. A man can ask any woman he has the guts to approach.

Exactly. Just because something is tradition doesn't mean it's right. Waiting for a man to ask you out is severely limiting. Can you imagine trying to find a job that way? That would be like posting your resume online and waiting for employers to contact you. The perfect job for you might be out there, but since you never applied to it and they never saw your resume online, you both missed out on each other.

[KMG1]

The sperm chases the egg, that will never be outdated.

[TaoistDude]

People make things too complex with all the "rules" they create and (often) mis-apply.

I keep it simple, and the only absolute "rule" I have is: Find someone with whom you are mutually compatible, and develop the relationship to wherever it goes.

Rules supposedly provide simplifications for complex activities like dating, but they are usually too narrowly focused and there are too many exceptions and shadings to always apply. I think it's better to understand a little psychology and flow with the situations you encounter.

[onihC]

Originally Posted by JustJulia

There are major drawbacks to traditional relationships; they don't just benefit women. For example, waiting for a man to ask you out or propose means you will only be able to choose among those who ask you. A man can ask any woman he has the guts to approach.

Nobody is holding women down from doing this. It's women themselve who decide not to do it and in the end, it benefits them because they just have to wait for a guy to pick them up and take care of them. Why would those so called dating rules hold you from asking a guy out, taking him out for dinner/wine, taking care of expenses, proposing, buying him an engagement ring, etc.? Women can be brave for so many things but not for things that have to do with relationships?

Originally Posted by DennyCrane

Exactly. Just because something is tradition doesn't mean it's right. Waiting for a man to ask you out is severely limiting. Can you imagine trying to find a job that way? That would be like posting your resume online and waiting for employers to contact you. The perfect job for you might be out there, but since you never applied to it and they never saw your resume online, you both missed out on each other.

Looking for a job benefits women so they'll do what it takes to look for a job: go to college even if it means moving to another state or country, take courses, go to stressful interviews no matter how nervous it can make them, make long lines, fill out long applications, be aggressive, etc. Waiting for men to approach her and take care of her benefits them so why do something about it if a man can do it for her? Why go against "dating rules"? I can see women saying it is sexist to say that washing the dishes is a woman's job but nobody says a thing about women expecting/demanding/wanting men to take the initiative, ask them out, dine/wine them, entertain them, propose to them, buy them their engagement ring, etc. All of a sudden those things are not sexist.

Like someone said on another thread a while back, let's leave gender ROLES for the movies. Dating rules are quite sexist.

[JustJulia]

Originally Posted by onihC

Nobody is holding women down from doing this.

Likewise, nobody is holding men down and making them act the way they do either. If men want women to approach them and take them places, they can do so.

Originally Posted by onihC

It's women themselves who decide not to do it and in the end, it benefits them because they just have to wait for a guy to pick them up and take care of them.

Waiting for someone is risky--that someone may never come. Like I said, a woman who would never propose to a man can only choose to marry a man who proposes to her. If no man ever proposes to her, she will never be married. That is not a benefit. I know you see women as waiting around, doing nothing but smiling while men do everything, but that's not really so.

Originally Posted by onihC

Why would those so called dating rules hold you from asking a guy out, taking him out for dinner/wine, taking care of expenses, proposing, buying him an engagement ring, etc.? Women can be brave for so many things but not for things that have to do with relationships?

Plenty do, as you know, but that was not your earlier statement. You said that traditional dating benefits only women with no drawbacks, and I pointed out that is untrue.

[onihC]

Originally Posted by JustJulia

If men want women to approach them and take them places, they can do so

You're right but not so sure if women are really upset because they can't approach men. Women would have already done something about it. Back in the day, only men were seen smoking, as firefighters, and what not. Women just had enough and decided to march forward and do what they wanted and they accomplished that and more. Yet, when it came to relationships I don't see why they stopped there. It can be because it is so comfortable to just have men spend money on them, take them out, romance them, take care of them, etc. Or because some men feel their manhood is threatened.

Waiting for someone is risky--that someone may never come

Could be but in a society where men ARE expected to take the initiative, that risk is low.

I know you see women as waiting around, doing nothing but smiling while men do everything, but that's not really so

In western tradition/dating rules/culture I can see that but when I have lived in Asia or when I visit, call it coincidence, culture, or luck, but I see women taking the initiative, asking me out, taking me out for dinner/wine, offering chivalry, etc. Just like I do for them since date #1.

You said that traditional dating benefits only women with no drawbacks, and I pointed out that is untrue.

Once a man approaches a woman, those dating rules/traditions start benefiting her off the bat.

So, do you also think that the dating rules that have been mentioned should be revised or thrown out?
-Men should take the initiative.
-Men should take care of expenses.
-Men should propose and buy women an engagement ring.
-Men should offer chivalry.

[JustJulia]

Originally Posted by onihC

You're right but not so sure if women are really upset because they can't approach men. Women would have already done something about it.

You don't think there are any women who lament not being married or not having a boyfriend?

People have different motives for what they do. I'm not going to pretend that there aren't any women who do expect the princess treatment, but that is not the sole reason women choose to be in traditional relationships.

Originally Posted by onihC

Back in the day, only men were seen smoking, as firefighters, and what not. Women just had enough and decided to march forward and do what they wanted and they accomplished that and more. Yet, when it came to relationships I don't see why they stopped there. It can be because it is so comfortable to just have men spend money on them, take them out, romance them, take care of them, etc. Or because some men feel their manhood is threatened.

Again, I know you believe that women just sit around smiling and being waited on.

There have been many threads created by men who wish that women were more feminine and traditional. They long for the days when women wore dresses every day, along with stockings and high heels. They want women who are more demure, who defer to them in decisions, who allow them to be the head of the household, and/or who stay home to keep house and take care of the children. Unfortunately they also seem to be upset that such women typically expect traditional behavior from their boyfriends and husbands, such as approaching her and showing her that he will be a good provider for their future family.

Originally Posted by onihC

Could be but in a society where men ARE expected to take the initiative, that risk is low.

You expect women to engage in risk by asking men out and doing other nontraditional things. Why not expect men to engage in similar risk and sit back and wait? You seem to challenge women to change, change, change, but why don't I ever see you challenging men to change? They are engaging in the same behaviors you admonish us for.

Originally Posted by onihC

Once a man approaches a woman, those dating rules/traditions start benefiting her off the bat.

There are downsides, too. If you can only say yes or no, you never really get to choose where to go or what to do. Men also benefit. Those who appreciate traditional roles like how this kind of relationship makes them feel. You'll have to appeal to those men to change.

Originally Posted by onihC

So, do you also think that the dating rules that have been mentioned should be revised or thrown out?
-Men should take the initiative.
-Men should take care of expenses.
-Men should propose and buy women an engagement ring.
-Men should offer chivalry.

Initiative - I've told you many times that I've asked men out and paid their way. I've also explained how reciprocation works in traditional dating.

Expenses - See above.

Proposal, ring - This depends on the couple. Some men are not comfortable being proposed to, nor would they like an engagement ring. Others won't mind. Others don't like rings at all or don't buy them for various reasons.

Chivalry - Again, this is gentlemanly conduct. You can no more ask a woman to be gentlemanly than I can ask a man to be more ladylike. I also doubt that most men want to be the recipients of 90% of chivalrous actions, such as a woman's helping a man with his coat or into his chair, or guiding him across puddles or ordering his food. The elements of "chivalry" you seem to focus on are expenses and approaching women, and paying for a date's expenses is not even particularly chivalrous. It's part of being a good host, which is outside the realm of chivalry.

[samston]

There are no dating rules, at least in terms of seeking out dates, or approaching people.

But on the date itself? hmm.. I'll still say there are not.

Holding the chair for her, or the door for her, are signs of gentlemanly behaviour, which are plusses. But she could be somebody who sees these actrions as patronising. Everyone is different.