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That's not what I was saying at all. 11th Hour didn't get it either. Which, I admit, is my fault for not explaining.
As far as I am concerned, there are only two "rules" in dating: (1) whatever constitutes a date should be fun for both, not a chore or hoops to jump through; and (2) neither owes the other anything. Oh, and big expenditures of money are a major turn-off. I don't believe I am unique in this, and I would venture a guess that the majority of people think this way.
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Very reasonable post though your first post was in scathing language of men (you believe) wanting to act like women. Which with the exception of poor onihc who continuously belabors some stupid notion of Chivalry practiced by both sexes, I did not see.
Never venture to speak for most people, only speak for yourself. Your two rules are rather unique. It is nice to want people to act in certain ways but they are not always going to do so. Your rule number 1. has been refuted by countless stories of dates that were not fun or were not laced with expectations. Your rule number 2. is simply not human behavior. Though I agree in a perfect world there would not be hang ups and expectations. We do not live in the perfect world. I believe Boodhabunny posts demonstrates her expectations of male dating requirements as an example refuting your rules (not rules but guidelines, well maybe not even that).
Not that I do not agree with the thrust of your post that everyone should stop being such juveniles creating rules. I believe many of the guys were arguing for that as well as some of the women.
Same thing applies to men. A girl who expects the man to do everything might give the impression of the typical princess who waits for the man to do it all while she just offers her presence.
That statement implies that you don't understand that there's a "natural" equilibrium in the way men and women interact, as in it suits both of their desires provided their general given nature.
My opinion is it is a custom that gives a benefit to one gender over another.
Again, someone else who doesn't understand how the nature of men and women underpin social interactions. Men have had the upper hand for centuries in sociopolitical matters (and arguably still do), the "invisible hand" that's to blame for common courting customs in their own.
Last edited by xxbabeechick; 10-19-2010 at 12:02 PM..
Again, someone else who doesn't understand how the nature of men and women underpin social interactions. Men have had the upper hand for centuries in sociopolitical matters (and arguably still do), the "invisible hand" that's to blame for common courting customs in their own.
The point you are attempting to make has been thoroughly rejected in this thread. You have preferences and that's fine, society has preferences, and that's fine. But please do not attempt to pawn off your preferences as based on some sort of universal biological constant. It's simply not true
I'm interjecting here to say that I do not endorse specific dating rules, like "wait three days before calling her back so she doesn't think you are too interested" and "pretend to be busy when he asks you out so he thinks you are popular and attractive," at all. I think "rules" like that are dumb. What I have been responding to are accusations that traditional dating benefits only women and that there are no drawbacks for women who date this way.
This is what I had in mind when I wrote my original post. There are so many silly rules that do more harm than good. The one about pretending to be busy is a perfect example. Sure you can do that and make him think you're really popular. But he might just conclude that you're not that interested in him and move on to someone else.
Having a thread in this sort of forum attempting to uncover the real reasons why there are gendered expectations is fruitless, because this forum tends to be overpopulated with bitter, old lonely men who want to blame society for their current predicament. They seem to forget they are in the minority, and the majority of men do not have these issues.
These are the kind of men who would look at a young, beautiful girl with an old wealthy man and say the cards are unbalanced in her favor because she gets to be pursued and supported, seemingly blind to the obvious fact this man is seeking this sort of arrangement because he wants to boost his ego and standing by having a young beautiful girl at his side he expects to mostly submit. There are none to very few zero sum interactions between men and women. Whatever roles they take tend to satisfy them psychologically, and their nature makes certain roles easier to slip into than others. So basically, as I've reiterated earlier, those who find the way men interact with women to be unbalanced and disharmonic in favor of women are usually wilfully ignorant to what makes men and women tick, in general.
But please do not attempt to pawn off your preferences as based on some sort of universal biological constant. It's simply not true
I never stated anything about a "universal biological constant", but it's interesting you mention that. When familiar roles seem to be assumed by men and women across cultures and geographical constraints, you have to ask yourself from what do these truly arise from?
I never stated anything about a "universal biological constant", but it's interesting you mention that. When familiar roles seem to be assumed by men and women across cultures and geographical constraints, you have to ask yourself from what do these truly arise from?
None of those rules have to do with "dating" in fact, the very concept of dating itself is a social construct.
I haven't read too many of the replies here but I wanted to chip in my opinion because I feel pretty strongly about this.
The rules that have been around for years, are there, and have stayed there, for reasons. I believe in them strongly and see no need, whatsoever, to change them. For example;
1) Women should not ask men on dates. Trust me on this. Women should hint that they want to be asked, and wait to be asked. If you offer yourself on a plate to a man, he will take advantage. Sometimes in the most heinous ways possible. It's always best to let a man wonder, and chase, and for the women to remain a bit of a mystery. Long term? Different story. Up front? Let the man ask. And make him wait a few days. Trust me, this theory has been around for a hundred years for a good reason.
2) Paying. Men should pay. Stop with the whining about paying for dates. Nothing grates on me like nails on a chalkboard like a man whining about paying. At very least, the first three dates, are on the man. Period. After that, if a woman wants to pay, she can offer. But a woman should never, ever be expected to pay. For anything. A woman opening her wallet is the same as opening her legs. Its the same as asking a man on a date. It's giving up too much information too soon. The "I wonder if she likes me" is gone and men will swoop in and pounce if they think they can. Am I going overboard? You think so? Go ahead, ask a man out and then pay for the date. See if he calls you the next day.
If you take away the chase, you have no more hold over a man. I didn't say "control", I said hold. Women have to maintain hold (a little) in a relationship or men will run amok. Men are selfish and have very little self control and will take more than they're offered. Am I over-generalizing? Stereotyping? You think so? I have seen the tears from women who did this and heard the pain of not being called again, or "dissed".
Go ahead and empower women to ask men on dates and to pay their own way. They'll learn the hard way that it's a bad idea.
I believe that if a man doesn't have the cojones to ask a woman on a date after getting visible signals that she wants to be asked, he's a moron and doesn't need anything handed to him.
Having a thread in this sort of forum attempting to uncover the real reasons why there are gendered expectations is fruitless, because this forum tends to be overpopulated with bitter, old lonely men who want to blame society for their current predicament. They seem to forget they are in the minority, and the majority of men do not have these issues.
Having a discussion on feminism is fruitless because most feminist are bitter, lonely old women who want to blame society for their current predicament. They seem to forget that they are in the minority, and the majority of women prefer not working/ taking care of their men and children.
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