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Old 10-19-2010, 01:56 PM
 
1,561 posts, read 1,497,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxbabeechick View Post
Really? Then why in the majority of the animal kingdom do males act as "aggressors" and females act as "selectors"?

We having intellect can transcend our nature, but most people won't be in conflict with their nature because it doesn't even arise to the awareness enough to debate it.
Ah yes the social orders of the birds. I was talking to my younger neighbor the other day (after I had successfully defeated him during his attempt to steal my females). His thoughts on the matter was that old dominate males made use of their strength and power to have a unfair advantage over the younger men. I, allowed that it might be true (keeping a close eye on the younger female in my group, she was always wandering about and needed to be chastised when she went too far.) I felt that was just sorry grapes on his part because he could not attract his own females. Of course if he did I would take them from him, the little runt. But I instead encouraged him that lots of girls would love to be seen with a beta male like him.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Astoria, NY
3,053 posts, read 2,491,755 times
Reputation: 2475
Quote:
Originally Posted by MortimerC View Post
Our dating culture does not transcend time periods, sub cultures and geographies. what are you talking about.
Ah see, here's the rub, I'm not talking about "dating culture" per se, I'm talking about men as aggressors and initiators and women as selectors, which pre-dates dating culture and is a perfect explanation of what current dating culture emerges from.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MortimerC View Post
Your personal opinions are clouding your ability to evaluate the claim.
You're the one who keeps on bringing up my personal opinions, not me. This has nothing to do with me or you, in particular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MortimerC View Post
If your answer is "it's not fair" but majority rules, I deem that position morally bankrupt and without merit.
What's "unfair" about it? People in engage in personal and social interactions that are of benefit to them in some measure, which means they exchange a bit of leverage in one respect for leverage in another.

Exactly like the example of the young beautiful girl and the old rich man that I proposed earlier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MortimerC View Post
I realize certain customs predominate over the centuries, that has nothing to do with the validity of my argument. Slavery exited for centuries, does that some how make it right? That's a silly argument.
Obviously total red herring, as no one's rights are violated by who decides to initate in relationship. It's mutualism on its most basic level as like finds like. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' to it like holding a person without their consent and subjugating them to unrequited labor. Social interactions such as dating relationships exist out of mutual benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MortimerC View Post
...do you think a woman should serve her man? Cook for him, clean, raise the kids etc? and how is this expectation any different than the ones we put on men?
I think women should do what they feel comfortable with doing. Some men don't want a woman to cook and clean for them and they like having a strong hand in how the kids are raised and that's the type of woman they are likely to attract. I on the other hand look forward to having a household and being Martha Stewart-like and I'd obviously find a man drawn to those things. There's no "right" or "wrong", "should" or "ought" to the matter. It all depends on one's personal expectations and expectations for their mate.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:58 PM
 
8,000 posts, read 10,868,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
On the other hand, my experience is that young women with older men are frequently regarded as golddiggers and graverobbers who trick men out of their money. There have certainly been many men on this forum who have said as much.
I'm not denying that. I'm sure those women know how people see them just as the men know how they're viewed. They obviously don't care. But I was responding to the notion that men don't realize why these men are with younger women. They do. We often laugh at such men because it's so blatantly obvious what's going on.
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:01 PM
 
5,148 posts, read 3,041,373 times
Reputation: 2865
This thread reminds me of something funny, that happened to me this morning:

I was driving along, not really paying attention to the Male Urnine Markings in the area. Anyways, I wandered into a guy's territory and accidently crossed his harem. Feeling threatened, he killed me.
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:01 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,313 posts, read 27,315,398 times
Reputation: 40096
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
I'm not denying that. I'm sure those women know how people see them just as the men know how they're viewed. They obviously don't care. But I was responding to the notion that men don't realize why these men are with younger women. They do. We often laugh at such men because it's so blatantly obvious what's going on.
Ah, I see what you're saying now, and I agree. That was pretty much my response when people talked about Anna Nicole Smith and her poor benighted husband.
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Astoria, NY
3,053 posts, read 2,491,755 times
Reputation: 2475
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
I see. So you're going to fall back on "nature" when it works in your favor.
How does it work in my favor? If a man does not fit that role, he's not going to find me attractive just as surely as I wouldn't find him attractive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
You can't have it both ways. Males may act as aggressors in the wild. They also kill each other to get what they want. Should we have a "social construct" based on that as well?
An appeal to nature seeks to explain a behavior, not justify it. When we're talking about matters of rights being violated, as in slavery or killing that's where intellect would predominate. What does intellect have to do in what's viscerally attractive about either sex? That's where nature comes in.
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Astoria, NY
3,053 posts, read 2,491,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
But I was responding to the notion that men don't realize why these men are with younger women. They do.
Of course they realize it in such an exaggerated example of extremes (because even in situations like that, there are usually a host of other complexities), what they don't seem to realize that even though the mutualism of a male-female relationship may not be as blatant, it still exists. It's a case of pure simple-mindeness.
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Astoria, NY
3,053 posts, read 2,491,755 times
Reputation: 2475
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra33 View Post
Not to be rude but I'm very surprised to see that you are female. Because your post just comes across soooo male. Nothing wrong with that, I just thought you were a guy.
It's not surprising that you thought she was a guy because she has old-fashioned, chivalric views that emerged from an androcentric society.
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:16 PM
 
221 posts, read 228,525 times
Reputation: 258
I would argue that the current regime does violate the rights of men, not the courtship process itself directly, that's silly. But the attitudes behind a lot of our customs constrict men socially. i would argue this very convincingly might I add, but that's going way outside of the narrow topic of this thread.

You can see it in this thread. You're not a "real man" unless you do this or that. Completely hypocritical and unfair. And to at the same time claim that this is a specific traditional social custom while at the same time arguing as if it's a free agreement between two parties irrespective of such culture is dishonst
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Astoria, NY
3,053 posts, read 2,491,755 times
Reputation: 2475
Quote:
Originally Posted by MortimerC View Post
I would argue that the current regime does violate the rights of men...
To this I would reply with this unanswered question I posed earlier:

Quote:
To the men who are obviously so thick they actually seriously believe that courting customs (or male female interactions in general) are gynocentric, exactly when have women had the sort of leverage to roll a centuries' old ball in their favor?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MortimerC View Post
And to at the same time claim that this is a specific traditional social custom while at the same time arguing as if it's a free agreement between two parties irrespective of such culture is dishonst
We're talking about two concepts that aren't mutually exclusive to one another and feed off each other by their very etiology. Example of traditional social custom: man giving woman an engagement ring. Stems from man initiates proposal. Stems from man initiates asking for another. Stems from man being aggressor. We've gone from a purely cultural concept to a base one. Very simple flow chart but they are intertwined.
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