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Old 10-20-2010, 10:04 AM
 
7,482 posts, read 8,010,724 times
Reputation: 6233
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxbabeechick View Post
I am the selector out of the pool of men who chose to approach me. So I do not have the entirety of the control. I may very well have my pick out of a horrible litter just because I'm not the one doing the initial selecting. So I said 'selector' as a general statement but it's obvious what I meant without clarifying. I can't choose the millionaire if the millionaire didn't first choose me. In fact, you can say the man has the control since he first selects who he will attempt to initiate a relationship with, and then he has the pick of whoever wants him.
You say that the man has control since he's the one who first decides whether he'll approach you. But who gave him that control? You did. By choosing to wait for him to approach you instead of approaching him yourself, you're still the one who's in control. You've simply chosen to defer to him. To say that you can't choose the millionaire if he doesn't choose you first is like me saying I can't choose to work for Google because they didn't choose me first. You and I both have a choice. But rather than pursue that millionaire, you've chosen to wait for him. So now you have to accept the consequences of that decision. There's a risk he may not approach you. There's a risk he'll find another women he likes better than you. There's a risk a woman may approach him. There a risk that the only people who approach you are the ones you have no interest in. I go back to my job search analogy. I'm in control of what jobs I pursue. If I want a job at Google, I'm free to apply. Whether they accept me is a different story. But if I sit back and wait for Google to contact me, then I run the risk of them never doing so. This begs the question "why maintain a set of practices that leave someone else in control?" Other posters on this thread have said that if you pursue a man, you risk intimidating and damaging his ego. So what? If a man's ego is that fragile where he feels like less of a man cause someone asked him out, I'd say you're a lot better off without him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxbabeechick View Post
The point being if it were a lose-win situation for males or females the behavior would shift. That's blatantly obvious.
Just because behavior hasn't shifted doesn't mean the system works. Maybe the reason there hasn't been a shift is because people are afraid to break with tradition. But if you think the system we have now is win-win, think again. Half of all marriages fail, in large part because women pick the wrong guy to marry. I've lost count of how many times I've heard women say "I don't meet any quality guys" or "none of the guys who come up to me appeal to me."

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxbabeechick View Post
I would be less attractive to that man because some men want in a women who is the aggressor and they aren't the aggressor purely because they'd rather meet a woman who fulfills that role.
But not all men who aren't the aggressive type fit this description. I don't consider myself a particularly aggressive person. But whether I find a woman attractive doesn't depend on how aggressive she is. If she isn't aggressive either, that doesn't make her less attractive to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxbabeechick View Post
Have you ever tried to evaluate the "rightness" or "wrongness" of being attracted to blonde hair or loud vs. soft-spoken women? I really don't think so. And if you're going to ignore gender differences, who exactly has been driving the "culture' of how men and women interact since the beginning of time? Men.
I've never evaluated the "rightness" or "wrongness" of being attracted to blond hair. But I have asked how much of my attraction is based on cultural influences. Think about the current emphasis on extremely skinny women. Here in the U.S., most men would rather be with someone who's thin. But if you go to other parts of the world, they'd look at such a woman as being unhealthy. Instead, the men would prefer someone with a more voluptuous figure. Notice how much culture influences people preferences. As for who's been "driving" the culture of how men and women interact, you can't pin that entirely on men. Women have a great deal of power over how they're treated. The very fact that we have a rule that says men must approach first is proof of that. Who set that up? Do you think it was just men? Or maybe women were complicit in that because they liked the idea of being pursued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxbabeechick View Post
There are men who are least partially blind to it. If such a situation arises, you will hear more derision aimed at the woman for being a "gold-digger" and much less, if any directed at the man who is exploiting her youth and beauty for status and standing. There may even be pity directed his way, as if he's gaining nothing, even though it's clearly a symbiotic relationship. The point I'm making is that even men who can acknowledge this are in gneral too thick to see that all relationships are part of a continuum of symbiosis, and that if they need an extreme example to demonstrate this they are really dense.
I don't know where you're seeing this, but I have NEVER met a man who thought this. The derision is equal. They label the woman a gold-digger just as much as they label the man "a dirty old man looking for a trophy wife". No one pities Michael Douglas or that old guy who married Anna Nicole Smith cause it was pretty obvious what he was after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxbabeechick View Post
See above and cease oversimplifying. There are reasons why women are generally responsible for child-rearing and similar duties that have nothing to do with an explicit exchange of services. If you ask a woman who works full-time (like my sister does), you'd likely hear a range of responses from, "I don't like the way he does it" or "If I left it up to him he'd never get it done." This seems like the man is deficient, but remember, people engage in relationships that are ultimately psychologically gratifying and disengage themselves from ones that aren't. She concedes one thing to get another. And many women have housework as an expectation of themselves.
I'm not oversimplifying. You're just deflecting responsibility. If a woman who works full time complains that her husband doesn't do his fair share of the household chores and then does what your sister does and says "I don't like how he does it," then the fault lies with the woman. Like I said above, the woman can limit her options by only choosing among the men who pursue her. But she shouldn't be complaining about the quality of men in that subset since she's one who created it in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxbabeechick View Post
There's a distinction in men who don't initiate that I'd like to make.

Those who actually prefer women to be the aggressors (the vast majority of them IMO).

And those who are reactively passive, who are frustrated with the process of intiating as it tests their sense of security. They don't actually truly prefer female aggression, they just are frustrated because they fear rejection.
I think you're buying into a stereotype with that last statement. Just because a man chooses not to be the pursuer doesn't mean that he's frustrated with the process, that it tests his sense of security, or that he's afraid of rejection. Many men simply find the whole "game" to be more trouble than it's worth. They're also confident that they don't need to play the game and that there are plenty of fish in the sea.
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Old 10-23-2010, 11:15 PM
 
17 posts, read 32,413 times
Reputation: 23
Men are the one's who should make the first move
Women shouldn't enjoy sex and /or should hold out
That a man is gay if he has feelings
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
60 posts, read 48,680 times
Reputation: 63
I agree with the OP. Every person is different however (man/woman) and for the many disrespectful posts that I've seen on here pretty much resorting to name calling that I've seen posted by so many selfish women then I'm glad in the end they were so upfront about it for those are women I would never want to meet in person either way let alone ask out (especially the posts that had to resort to name calling of men). Yes you few women on this thread are winners alright.

Personally I've always preferred it when a woman made a first move in the form of: talking to me first, letting me know of their interest, asking me to do something with them, inviting me to a party/event or by just doing something simple to break the ice. This way I was given choice to decide to go further with it or ask her out on a real date. I would expect to be the one to propose as well not vice versa.

Obviously from several different posts I've read there are women who are obsessed with themselves and everything is about 'me, me, me'. I also do not appreciate the disrespect several of these selfish women have shown to those with opposing viewpoints. I also do not appreciate it when guys or girls try to use their own personal experiences to act like they know what is best for me or other people they don't know personally as well. Not all men (or even most men from whom I've known) do not enjoy the hunt or chase. Many guys such as myself want an equal relationship and not one where I always the 'initiator, decision maker in everything or the aggressor'.

To each their own is what I say. I'm not sure why so many women and even some self described 'alphamales' have to resort to these immature attacks on people who don't agree with them. If you're the type of woman who prefers to be courted then so be it. If you're the type of woman who prefers to have some choice in bringing the type of guy she wants into her life then good for her as well. The same thing with guys. If you're the type of guy who prefers to court or approach women first than great. If you're a guy who is mixed on this and doesn't mind initiating or being approached then good. If your the type of guy who is somewhat backwards and prefers a woman to help them out by at least showing interest than why do we need to attack this? I've noticed most of the trolling I've been seeing on threads relating to these issues have been posted by the so-called 'traditionalist women' or 'traditionalist men'.
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Middle of the ocean
8,890 posts, read 4,383,551 times
Reputation: 12433
Most of my personal rules, are a lot of the general traditional rules stated.

They're not the "rules" I use because they are the "rules", they are my rules because that's what I like, and what works for me.

There's more than enough people in the world to have a set of rules that matches yours, so why complain?

I realize that what I need in a mate reduces the potential dating field dramatically... I don't whine that everyone therefore should change to what I want and need. I deal with it.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:54 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
60 posts, read 48,680 times
Reputation: 63
How am I complaining? I only pointed out the fact that every guy and every girl is different and we all have different things we prefer in a potential mate. It is the women on this thread that have to resort to the name calling of men who don't prefer to approach women first that I'm 'complaining' about.

You obviously didn't pay attention to much of my post. I have no problem if personally a woman expects a guy to approach them and they acknowledge that is what is best for them. When the disrespectful comments start up and these types of women have to resort to insulting guys like me don't I have a right to fire back? Let me guess those attempts at taking shots at guys like me do not exist in this thread. It must be all in my head now. Doesn't respect work both ways?
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Old 12-30-2010, 07:14 AM
 
7,482 posts, read 8,010,724 times
Reputation: 6233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43 View Post
Most of my personal rules, are a lot of the general traditional rules stated.

They're not the "rules" I use because they are the "rules", they are my rules because that's what I like, and what works for me.

There's more than enough people in the world to have a set of rules that matches yours, so why complain?

I realize that what I need in a mate reduces the potential dating field dramatically... I don't whine that everyone therefore should change to what I want and need. I deal with it.
Each person should feel free to come up with their own set of rules and not have society dictate what those rules should be. I know most people will say they're independent and don't let other people tell them what to think. But I suspect a lot of people let themselves be influenced more than they're willing to admit.
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
60 posts, read 48,680 times
Reputation: 63
"Each person should feel free to come up with their own set of rules and not have society dictate what those rules should be. I know most people will say they're independent and don't let other people tell them what to think. But I suspect a lot of people let themselves be influenced more than they're willing to admit." Unfortunately you're correct. Not every other person's 'rules' suit me. It seems there are more smarter men out there who have decided to not 'play the game' and because of this they get basically a nasty backlash from many stuck up women.

Yet again I have to say this: I have no problem with women who want to be chased, pursued, approached, courted or whatever but what I do have a problem with (and these attacks seem to come from most of these types of women) is when they have to insult men who don't pursue them or other women. With statements such as "a real man", "grow a set", or "the only thing making many of these guys 'men' are their privates" the only thing I can say here is this shows their immaturity level as well as their selfishness. There is a difference between preferring a certain type of mate and outright insulting others.

Personally I've never enjoyed the pursuit, hunt or chase nor did I ever enjoy being pursued myself. I've always been more of an even steven where both sides need to show interest. I also don't appreciate all of the dating advice garbage out there telling me that as a guy I enjoy the hunt or chase. No not all of us do (in fact I would say most guys would agree with me here). There are enough challenges in my life as there is already without adding the extra burdens of playing games with other people and especially playing games when it comes to dating. I've always preferred women who can think for themselves as well and not allow themselves to be governed by 'the rules'.
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:15 AM
 
7,482 posts, read 8,010,724 times
Reputation: 6233
Paradox73,

I agree with a lot of what you said. I too don't care for the insults. Not only does it show immaturity, it suggests a sense of entitlement. Oh look at me. I'm such a great catch. Men should come after me.

I accept that men are expected to pursue and if I see someone who interests me, I'll definitely pursue her. But if a man decides he doesn't want to pursue someone, he shouldn't be made to feel like he's less of a man. A lot of women play games and a lot of men get tired of it. Games are for kids, not adults. I don't want a woman to throw herself at me or make it feel like I don't have to do a thing to win her over. That makes me think she's desperate and easy. But I also don't like someone to be a challenge just for the sake of being a challenge.

This idea that all men enjoy the thrill of the hunt is not only silly, but actually an insult to women. Congratulations! You've just described yourself in a way that makes you sound like something to be mounted on the wall to show off to his friends. The men who love the thrill of the hunt are also more likely to be the men who'll describe you as a notch on the bedpost. Now that they've caught you and got what they wanted, where's the thrill in staying?

Again, I don't expect the roles to reverse and have women pursuing men. But I do have great respect for the woman who's willing to disregard what she's been told and think for herself, even if that means doing something that might not be considered "ladylike".
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:30 PM
 
2,393 posts, read 2,321,240 times
Reputation: 1758
Everyones different just because some situation or way of doing things didnt work for YOU doesnt mean everyone of your gender has the same experience..

Seems to me allot of women use this bilogical thing or Men should do this and women should do that when it works in their favor..
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:20 PM
 
7,482 posts, read 8,010,724 times
Reputation: 6233
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBT1980 View Post
Seems to me allot of women use this bilogical thing or Men should do this and women should do that when it works in their favor..
It's true that people are reluctant to do away with "rules" that work in their favor. This is true of both men and women. For all our collective talk about the equality of the sexes, I think we can be hypocrites about that and actually savor whatever special treatment our gender affords.
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