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Seems like a good time to revive this excellent thread
Some people here could learn a lot from it!
The original post was a very interesting read. I mostly agree to the concepts, but my definition of "nice guy" has been different most of my life. I always thought of myself as a nice guy, but I was never a doormat. All my life I've been confident, assertive and friendly but still had no success with women. My definition of "nice guy" doesn't quite align with JustJulia's (or, apparently, most other people) so let me explain.
Maybe you could call me a nice man. All my life I strove to be an upstanding gentleman, but this in itself is still not enough. My looks are mediocre at best, so I needed to be more than just a confident person. I needed to be aggressive as well. I didn't learn this until recently, but the reason I never got any dates is because I never took the lead and made my intentions clear. I focused on being friendly and getting to know the woman slowly. I never got anywhere because I felt weird "hitting on" women. Either I didn't know how to make that first move or I didn't want to make the situation awkward for her (I worried more about it being awkward for her than for me.) I was thrown into the friend-zone more times than I can shake a fist at.
I became consumed by the "nice guys finish last" phenomenon despite the fact that I didn't fit the "nice guy" role. Once I learned how to telegraph my intentions smoothly, doors started opening up. I'm not sure I've hit the idyllic "good man" title yet, but I'm trying to get there. I always thought I was the nice guy and was disappointed every time a woman didn't notice me, but I never really was the nice guy. I was the nice man that stayed within his boundaries a little too strictly. All the approach tactics and pick up lines in the world won't help if they're applied in a friendly way versus a romantic way.
When people say "get to know the woman first" don't take that line word-for-word or you won't be successful. What they mean is show some class and make your intentions known without coming on too strong. At least that's what I finally learned (only took 23 years . . .)
The original post was a very interesting read. I mostly agree to the concepts, but my definition of "nice guy" has been different most of my life. I always thought of myself as a nice guy, but I was never a doormat. All my life I've been confident, assertive and friendly but still had no success with women. My definition of "nice guy" doesn't quite align with JustJulia's (or, apparently, most other people) so let me explain.
Maybe you could call me a nice man. All my life I strove to be an upstanding gentleman, but this in itself is still not enough. My looks are mediocre at best, so I needed to be more than just a confident person. I needed to be aggressive as well. I didn't learn this until recently, but the reason I never got any dates is because I never took the lead and made my intentions clear. I focused on being friendly and getting to know the woman slowly. I never got anywhere because I felt weird "hitting on" women. Either I didn't know how to make that first move or I didn't want to make the situation awkward for her (I worried more about it being awkward for her than for me.) I was thrown into the friend-zone more times than I can shake a fist at.
I became consumed by the "nice guys finish last" phenomenon despite the fact that I didn't fit the "nice guy" role. Once I learned how to telegraph my intentions smoothly, doors started opening up. I'm not sure I've hit the idyllic "good man" title yet, but I'm trying to get there. I always thought I was the nice guy and was disappointed every time a woman didn't notice me, but I never really was the nice guy. I was the nice man that stayed within his boundaries a little too strictly. All the approach tactics and pick up lines in the world won't help if they're applied in a friendly way versus a romantic way.
When people say "get to know the woman first" don't take that line word-for-word or you won't be successful. What they mean is show some class and make your intentions known without coming on too strong. At least that's what I finally learned (only took 23 years . . .)
Woo hoo, so happy for you!
Kudos to you for being WILLING to learn what you were doing that was repelling romance and work on correcting that instead of blaming all women for your lack of ability to find one
Being too nice is just another form of a sucker to women. Men need to stop fighting women into accepting their ideals and way of thinking. We are wired differently. We pee standing up they pee sitting down. Are brains operate differently in the same way.
Instead of fighting their logic cope with it and understand it.
Strong, Assertive and Genuine will get you further with women then being shy, gullible, and desperate.
Kudos to you for being WILLING to learn what you were doing that was repelling romance and work on correcting that instead of blaming all women for your lack of ability to find one
Hopefully some unsuccessful guys out there can gain insight from my mistakes. I would be willing to bet that more guys fall into the hybrid "nice man" category as opposed to the doormat "nice guy" category.
Hopefully some unsuccessful guys out there can gain insight from my mistakes. I would be willing to bet that more guys fall into the hybrid "nice man" category as opposed to the doormat "nice guy" category.
I sincerely hope they do
The first step is taking personal responsibility for your happiness and life
In another thread yesterday, I said that nice guys should stop trying to be so nice and to try to be good men instead. I was asked to elaborate but the thread was closed, so here goes. These are only my opinions, so please don't expect me to defend my semantics as some universal truth. Your mileage may vary.
Most of you have probably seen The Mask, where milquetoast Stanley Ipkiss (Jim Carrey) finds a magical mask that transforms him and his life. In an early scene, he tells a female coworker that he got the concert tickets she wanted, obviously hoping for a date, but he ends up giving both of them to her so she can go with a friend. "Stanley, you are the nicest guy, " she coos. "Charley, isn't Stanley just the nicest guy?"
Self-titled nice guys, to me, come in two flavors: Too Nice and Not Nice. Stanley Ipkiss is Too Nice. A few self-styled nice guys here are Too Nice, with tales of repeatedly being taken advantage of and lied to by family and friends. Sometimes being Too Nice can turn a guy into Not Nice, because his indignation and loneliness fester into anger and resentment. These men are convinced that they are still Too Nice, but the chips on their shoulders can be spotted a mile away. To those guys, not slapping women around or not stealing cars (or, as one poster stated, not burning a woman's vagina and breasts with a blowtortch--no anger there ) means they are nice. They compare themselves to rapists and child molesters and label themselves nice in contrast, but they are still markedly hostile and angry. Of course, some Not Nice nice guys were never very nice.
What's wrong with being nice? Nothing, really. But ask yourself these things:
If you were to summarize myself in two words, would nice guy (or nice girl--this can apply to women too) be your choice? Men, if a buddy is trying to set you up with a woman, and you ask what she's like, if he says, "She's a nice girl," how do you react?
How many other people refer to you as a nice guy--that exact phrase? If everybody calls you a nice guy, you are Stanley Ipkiss. If your friends and exes never call you a nice guy, you are probably not. That doesn't mean you are Not Nice (although you could be), but nice guy is not how people define you. Nice guy is what you get if that's as good as it gets with you. Not amazing personality or hilarious dude or smoking hot or so talented or really smart or good man ... nice guy.
My husband is a good man. Those are the two words I would pick if I had to summarize him. He's kind to strangers, generous with his family, and attentive to the elderly and disabled. This is probably the biggest reason I love him. He's nice, I guess, but I really wouldn't call him that. I'd choose polite, pleasant, kind ... nice has a bit of a stigma to it. The word nice used to mean timid and senseless, before being whitewashed into its current meaning of pleasant, but it's still bland. Don't be bland. My husband is also not always nice, although he is always good. It's possible to be strong and assertive without being rude or unkind. Nice guys who find themselves used as doormats need to learn this.
Think of a man you admire, someone you genuinely look up to and wish to be like, even if you don't think you could ever be. How does that person treat women? A good man could never treat women like trash, even if a so-called nice guy thinks that they deserve it. In The Mask, Stanley is transformed into the green-faced, charismatic ladies' man. Does he slap Cameron Diaz around and punish her for being with bad boys? No, he has the guts to dance with her and kiss her. And he robs a bank and dances the samba with the police ... okay, this example is not so great.
A good man is not perfect. No one is perfect. But I believe most women would prefer a Good Man to a Nice Guy, even some of those who choose Bad Boys over Nice Guys. Be a good man.
What is a good man, in your opinion? Give some examples of what a good man does, not just what he is.
Being too nice is just another form of a sucker to women. Men need to stop fighting women into accepting their ideals and way of thinking. We are wired differently. We pee standing up they pee sitting down. Are brains operate differently in the same way.
Very true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veyron
Strong, Assertive and Genuine will get you further with women then being shy, gullible, and desperate.
Not only with women, but in life in general, in both personal and professional circles.
This line irks me a bit. I've noticed that the most of the women I've dated expect the man to introduce excitement into the relationship. This is all well and good, but the women rarely try to reciprocate said excitement. It's up to the "good man" to plan all these exciting/romantic/unique once-in-a-lifetime experiences and the woman's duty is just to show up and judge whether or not he can amaze her enough to keep her interest. If the man isn't amazing/creative enough he's labeled as the bland nice guy and the woman moves on.
That excitement is vital in the beginning of the relationship, but why does it become the man's duty? Often times it can mean the difference between avoiding the nice guy label and attaining the good man label. I wonder if there's an equivalent for women?
This line irks me a bit. I've noticed that the most of the women I've dated expect the man to introduce excitement into the relationship. This is all well and good, but the women rarely try to reciprocate said excitement. It's up to the "good man" to plan all these exciting/romantic/unique once-in-a-lifetime experiences and the woman's duty is just to show up and judge whether or not he can amaze her enough to keep her interest. If the man isn't amazing/creative enough he's labeled as the bland nice guy and the woman moves on.
That excitement is vital in the beginning of the relationship, but why does it become the man's duty? Often times it can mean the difference between avoiding the nice guy label and attaining the good man label. I wonder if there's an equivalent for women?
Can't speak for Julia, but I'm betting she was just saying "have some personality!". In other words, don't blend into the woodwork, stand out a little even if it's just by smiling more.
We call this not being a "wallflower" and it goes for men AND women
This line irks me a bit. I've noticed that the most of the women I've dated expect the man to introduce excitement into the relationship. This is all well and good, but the women rarely try to reciprocate said excitement. It's up to the "good man" to plan all these exciting/romantic/unique once-in-a-lifetime experiences and the woman's duty is just to show up and judge whether or not he can amaze her enough to keep her interest. If the man isn't amazing/creative enough he's labeled as the bland nice guy and the woman moves on.
That excitement is vital in the beginning of the relationship, but why does it become the man's duty? Often times it can mean the difference between avoiding the nice guy label and attaining the good man label. I wonder if there's an equivalent for women?
I agree with you, and I would give women the same advice. Men have just as much right to want an exciting date. I wrote the post for men who complain that women never notice them or desire them. I stand by the assertion that if "nice guy" is really the best way to describe you, you are probably a bland person. It says so very little about you that it's nearly meaningless--the most it does say is that there's not much else about you.
Imagine you are a single man and I want to fix you up with a friend of mine. You ask me what she is like, and I say, "She's very pleasant." Is your interest piqued? Are your loins aflame?
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) means they are nice. They compare themselves to rapists and child molesters and label themselves nice in contrast, but they are still markedly hostile and angry. Of course, some Not Nice nice guys were never very nice.
