Why does much of the female gender act supportively toward one, but overwhelmingly reject the other? (surrogacy, therapy)

[donie1]

Originally Posted by Knight2009

Unrealistic? Perhaps...although, one might have said the same thing about the mutual understanding between straight women and gay men, before homosexuality became more acceptable to society as an alternative lifestyle to straight relationships.

Love-shy men have no less of a need to be loved and cared about, than both straight non-shy men and gay men. I thought that maybe if more straight women were aware of love-shyness "works", that they might be a little more open, and perhaps not be so quick to judge or dismiss the love-shy guy, who might be interested in them romantically.

You've taken the article on what Gilmartin said to heart about love shy and gay men and you will not change your thinking. And that's fine, whatever makes you feel better.

Concerning your family, you need to kick them to the curb. Harsh, yes I know but you'll feel so much better and you'll really be able to take control of your life. I know from experience. I've done it and wish I had many, many years ago. I wasted all those years with them for nothing. When your family members are nasty and mean-spirited for no reason and you've done everything in your power to please, help, love, etc them, it's time to cut them out of your life.

[donie1]

Originally Posted by killakoolaide

Never take advice from women on how to get women.

Really and that's why so many men in here are in the dark about dating and women because they asked their bros and get no where.

If I'm wondering about guys, I'm sure not going to ask a bunch of women, I'm going straight to the source and ask the guys.

[Georgianbelle]

Originally Posted by Knight2009

Thanks for your comments. My question to your points though is, since the male love-shy differs substantially in terms of temperament, personality, and basic psychology, from the non-shy male, if the female person he is dating is not willing to perhaps "make some allowances" for that, as you mention, how is she ever going to be able to truly understand him? She could conceivably be passing up someone who could be a great potential match for her, but just not know it, due to "not understanding" him, b/c she was automatically expecting him to exhibit the non-shy male approach.

As far as talking to my family about it, I fear that is out of the question. They could care less, about my happiness, and have made it clear that they feel I "deserve" to be fated to never be married.

You are still expecting the woman to take care of you or to help you get over your issues. Why would she? She will just move on to a guy who doesn't have as many issues. I am not trying to hurt you, but I am telling you the truth. When I have gotten an odd vibe or a weird feeling on a date, I have been quick to cut off contact. There are always other men to date that don't take so much work. Dating and relationships are for fun, and if they are not fun most women won't go out with you. Why does your family feel this way?

[killakoolaide]

Originally Posted by donie1

Really and that's why so many men in here are in the dark about dating and women because they asked their bros and get no where.

If I'm wondering about guys, I'm sure not going to ask a bunch of women, I'm going straight to the source and ask the guys.

Everyone already knows, including you, that what women say they want, and what they are really attracted to, are contradictions, Guys on the otherhand, we just tell it like it is.

[beachmel]

Originally Posted by Knight2009

I wanted to ask something that's been on my mind for a while now: in modern/comtemporary Western society, most straight adult women are overwhelmingly supportive and accepting of gay men, and their lifestyle. This is continually and culturally re-inforced in popular society constantly, where you commonly see movies/TV shows with gay men and straight women befriending each other very closely, all the time in recent years.

Research from Gilmartin and Shockley has shown that women typically overwhelmingly reject the love-shy male (please see Love-shyness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for further info; IMO though, the previous version of the wikipedia article was a little better than one currently shown). Psychologist Gilmartin estimates that love-shyness will prevent 1.5%, or about 1.7 million, American males from ever marrying. It just struck me as rather unusual, how many women may be (and legitimately so) very sympathethic and understanding to the plight and social challenges faced by gay males, but be indifferent to, or share little or no empathy at all, for the straight male love-shy. (I have read Gilmartin's books and research on love-shyness, and based on my own life experiences, believe I am and/or was a love shy male also -- in fact, my very second C-D post was asking for advice on how to deal with earlier love-shyness.)

Gilmartin, the original researcher on love-shyness, classified in his book and also referenced here, the seven criteria of love-shyness as follows (previously available in the former version of the associated wikipedia article; no longer currently available now, so I'm copying and pasting them, from my previous C-D post, from when they were actually present):



Any thoughts or comments please?

Could it be that women who truly appreciate the friendships and viewpoints of gay males are simply refreshed to find a male friend who isn't making her feel either judged and ridiculed, or lusted after like a piece of meat to a starving man. Could it be that gay men appear to be listening to their female friends, rather than "pretending" to? caring, rather than pretending to care?

As for being preferred over so called, "love-shy" males, I don't believe that for one minute. Okay....enough of that....now onto "love-shy" males.

First of all...this Gilmartin and Shockley? pshaw! These are well-researched, respected psychologists? Let's remember good ole Dr. Freud. Do YOU want to have sex with your mother? Did you ever? Do I resent men because they have a penis and I don't? NO! If I resents SOME men, it's because they think their having a penis makes them a superior person! I am reminded of the story of the little boy and little girl comparing privates. The little boy whips down his pants and says, "Yeah! Well I've got one of these!" The little girl whips her pants down and says, "Oh YEAH! Well I've got one of THESE and with one of THESE, I can get as many of THOSE as I want!"

Knight, you have found someone who has a theory. You're looking for a possible reason for your dilemna and these people have a theory which makes you feel like you now have an answer. You have been unsuccessful in your male/female, love connections. Why? That is the question you need to be asking yourself. What kind of women am I trying to approach? What are my expectations? Am I only looking for women who are not right for me? Do I have imperfections that I need to look more closely at? Are those imperfections putting me out of the competition with the women I have been trying to attract?

Are the women you have been trying to attract, finding you unattractive because you are not as "independent" as they'd prefer you to be? Women who are looking for long-term relationships and marriage are not going to be even remotely interested in someone who is not free to give themselves 100% to them.

Let's go back to the "love-shy" situation here. Another poster brought up something that I'd like to re-introduce. A woman walks into a room. A man looks at her. Oh he's attracted right off the bat! He watches her talking to others, can hear words she's saying, knows she's single and from what he's hearing, she seems like such a nice gal. They make eye contact...briefly. In a few minutes, they pass each other in the room, they stop and introduce themselves. She's thinking, "Wow, he's really cute, and he seems so sweet! Now if he's employed, as nice as he seems to be, and single, hey...just maybe...?" Where do you go from there? Do you tell her you'd like to get to know her better, see her again sometime? No? Hmmm well, why not? Because.....?

Okay, let's say you say yes. If you find out that she's not a virgin, is she out of the running? If she has a kid, legitimate or not....how about now? If you see her have a couple of drinks...is she out of the running now? If she's divorced?...Now? If she swears.....now? When there are 30 people, (over the age of 12), who fit that criteria, what are the odds that you're going to end up with one of them?

When you develop a relationship with a woman, become friends with her and go on a couple of "outings", what is it that's driving her away from you? Does she get to know you, really care about you, then get frustrated because you keep making excuses for your situations in life, rather than putting your foot down and making the necessary changes? Society has put the expectation out there that men should be strong and decisive! Grown men are expected to be. Women want to 'BEAR" children, not marry them! (most) When most women are looking for a man to marry, they are not looking for someone who is going to lean on them, because they are unable to make clear and independent choices.

Please Knight...stop looking for someone who has finally found a label to put on you dear one. If you want the answers, sit down and make up a list of "Pros and Cons about ME". What in your life makes you a "catch"? What in your life makes you a "QUICK, THROW IT BACK!" guy? Do women who have spent time with you think...you're flat out not interested, because of your shyness? That feels a whole lot like rejection to women you know.

[JustJulia]

People should seek advice from those who have achieved the kind of success they want. Knight does not want advice how to charm the pants off drunk chicks or whether single moms are easy.

[h886]

Originally Posted by Knight2009

Thanks for your comments. My question to your points though is, since the male love-shy differs substantially in terms of temperament, personality, and basic psychology, from the non-shy male, if the female person he is dating is not willing to perhaps "make some allowances" for that, as you mention, how is she ever going to be able to truly understand him? She could conceivably be passing up someone who could be a great potential match for her, but just not know it, due to "not understanding" him, b/c she was automatically expecting him to exhibit the non-shy male approach.

As far as talking to my family about it, I fear that is out of the question. They could care less, about my happiness, and have made it clear that they feel I "deserve" to be fated to never be married.

I have to disagree with the basic premise of this statement. First off, everyone has to deal with making mistakes while dating, not just love-shy males. Everyone gets nervous during dates and everyone fumbles one thing or another. I think you need to give women a little more credit. We are not blind, foolish, testosterone-grubbing sirens (no, you didn't say that, but I frankly am a bit disappointed in some of the general characterizations and assumptions I'm reading towards women here) and we really can make a valid judgment about whether or not we are attracted to the male before us when given the opportunity (hence: the date.)

Everyone wishes that the pretty girl would "make some allowances" for them. The overweight guy wishes she would make allowances for his weight (if that's her turn-off.) The guy who is a bore to talk to wishes she would make allowances for that. The guy in a wheelchair wishes she would make allowances for that if she's not willing to date a guy with a disability. Frankly, women wish that too. They (like men) are rejected for all sorts of things that seem arbitrary. Breasts too small, overweight, too needy, hips too big, too shy, likes cats too much, divorced, has kids, has debt, too much of a homebody, lives with her mother, never married at 45... you name it and it's a deal-breaker for someone.

Love-shy's are no different from the rest. If they actually want to break the cycle instead of simply complaining about it, they need to critically examine where they're going wrong interacting on dates and learn to change those behavior patterns. Really, it's not so different from what everyone else goes through and it can be addressed if someone is willing to put in the work.

[MattB4]

Originally Posted by JustJulia

People should seek advice from those who have achieved the kind of success they want. Knight does not want advice how to charm the pants off drunk chicks or whether single moms are easy.

Hold on a minute... now that is advice I could use. Sounds like the best choice is Drunk single moms that wear pants. Now where do you order these from?

[JustJulia]

Originally Posted by MattB4

Hold on a minute... now that is advice I could use. Sounds like the best choice is Drunk single moms that wear pants. Now where do you order these from?

I'm sure you could find this info on many other threads.

[Knight2009]

Originally Posted by JustJulia

Perhaps, but keep in mind the following:

1. If something turns us off, patience and understanding will rarely do any good. You said earlier that you'd like women to be your friends, but:

2. Most of the time, we don't wish to be friends with men who we know desire us when we don't feel the same. It can make us feel guilty and awkward.

It's possible for friends to develop romantic feelings, but I don't think that happens very often when one person is simply waiting and hoping that the other will fall in love.

You have some excellent points there Julia...very fascinating, b/c I had never really thought of it that way, in the manner you had described Many thx for presenting the female thoughts / side of the equation!