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Perhaps I should have been more specific: involuntary celibacy, not in the sense of casual physical intimacy, but of never being able, to ever be married, or marriageable. Gilmartin assessed in his book, and as I cited in my orginal post, that an estimated 1.7 million U.S. love-shy males will never marry, b/c of their condition. For those who suffer from involuntary celibacy in the sense of being "unmarriageable", for whatever reason, the consequences can be totally devastating, and cause an enormous amount of emotional suffering. And what about the human cost here? ETA: Remember, it's not about no-strings intimacy -- we're talking here about ppl, who may in fact never be married at all, ever.
do people that are celibate masturbate? I'm not asking about you personally, I just want to know if it defeats the whole idea of celibacy?
do people that are celibate masturbate? I'm not asking about you personally, I just want to know if it defeats the whole idea of celibacy?
If we're talking about involuntary celibacy in the sense of never being married (as I was), in the general sense, AFAIK anyway (not talking about myself specifically here), mere physical stimulation will *never* be enough.
What is marriage fundamentally about? I would wager that it is about having a wife and a husband, united together in love...wanting to spend the rest of their lives together, in married union...building their own loving family, together. Physical stimulation can never substitute for that, particularly the desire to have dear children, together with a beloved spouse.
Last edited by Phoenix2017; 02-18-2011 at 07:50 PM..
Reason: Added language
If we're talking about involuntary celibacy in the sense of never being married (as I was), in the general sense, AFAIK anyway (not talking about myself specifically here), mere physical stimulation will *never* be enough.
What is marriage fundamentally about? I would wager that it is about having a wife and a husband, united together in love...wanting to spend the rest of their lives together, in married union...building their own loving family, together. Physical stimulation can never substitute for that, particularly the desire to have dear children, together with a beloved spouse.
Why does America have to label everything as a "condition"? No one is "unmarriageable". Also, all psychologists have opinions just like you and I do. It still does not make their theories absolute or fact. This IS his opinion, and as I stated earlier this has been happening for thousands of years all over the world. If YOU are unhappy, work to fix it, don't keep looking for something to blame it on.
I'm not looking to blame anything, on anyone. At the same time, sometimes I think that if some women could be perhaps just be a lil bit more understanding or patient with male love-shys (similar to as they are with gay males), it might be able to make a world of difference.
To quote an excerpt from Gilmartin's book again (p.29):
Quote:
10. Low social/emotional support is strongly associated with all
manner of serious crime and psychopathology. In fact, the
more serious and violent a person's crime is, the more thoroughgoing
the extent of alienation from supportive friendship
and family networks that one can expect to find in the life of
the perpetrator.
11. Social support increases coping ability, which is the etiological
gateway to health and well-being. Social-emotional support
short-circuits the illness responses to stress.
12. A low sense of social-emotional support exacerbates life stress.
And for most people it is a major stressor in and of itself.
Also:
Quote:
The message of all of this work is clear: love relationships and
friendship support systems help people to cope better with the stresses
and strains of everyday living. The very fact of having an intimate confidante
mollifies and greatly reduces the effects of stress upon both the
mind and the body. Hence, medical and psychiatric symptomology tends
to be significantly less for people who are well integrated into family
and peer group support systems. Further, when illness does strike, those
with love relationships and friends manage to recuperate significantly
faster than those lacking in such social-emotional support systems.
Last edited by Phoenix2017; 02-18-2011 at 08:11 PM..
Reason: Corrected typo
Except that Dr. Gilmartin is a professional psychologist and also a professor -- doesn't that in itself lend a certain degree of credibility, to what the man has to say? It's not like he's a novice; he is an expert in his field.
As far as love-shyness being a "minor issue" -- love-shyness has been widely compared and linked to involuntary celibacy. I somehow doubt that involuntary celibacy qualifies as "minor"?
Yes, but at some point we can create a disorder for everything, right?? I can say I suffer from not liking to get up early to go to work and call it sleepy-grouchy female syndrome. A morbidly obese man may have similar trouble finding someone to marry as a very shy person. Does he have obese-unmarriageable syndrome according to Dr. Gilmartin? A woman with a caustic personality who yells at men may have trouble finding a partner. Do we call this aggressive-unmarriageable syndrome?
It's not that I doubt there are men (and women) who are painfully shy out there and that it hampers their ability to attract others, but that I think it's possible to take such a thing too far. At what point do we take a steadying breath and say, "Hey, we've all got something to deal with. Mine is xyz," and then move on and try to do the best we can to overcome it? A personality attribute that is one person's crutch is another's minor bump in the road.
Second, involuntary celibacy? Really? There are a lot of people on this planet who would consider themselves involuntarily celibate, lemme tell you. I don't think it feels any better to them than it does to you. But on the other hand, there are also lots of shy guys and girls who DO eventually find a spouse. It's all in the outlook. If you decide the world is unfair, that all the girls are prejudiced against you, that you're a shy-love guy and you'll probably die a virgin? Well, chances are you aren't going to project the most positive self-image and that's going to turn potential mates off. If you decide to have a positive attitude, continue to focus on self-improvement? There's a much stronger chance you may meet Mrs. Right.
to me this love-shyness things sounds very extreme, the way it's been described. A lot of people exhibit some shyness in love relationships but yet seem to find a mate. The person that is in their 50's that is still a virgin I would say is a rarer occurance.
Knight do you consider yourself as someone who is love-shy based on the defintiions you describe? I got the impression that at least at some point you went out with women
What's the particular common denominator between gay guys and love-shys that would warrant similar empathy ??
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