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I wanted to ask something that's been on my mind for a while now: in modern/comtemporary Western society, most straight adult women are overwhelmingly supportive and accepting of gay men, and their lifestyle. This is continually and culturally re-inforced in popular society constantly, where you commonly see movies/TV shows with gay men and straight women befriending each other very closely, all the time in recent years.
Research from Gilmartin and Shockley has shown that women typically overwhelmingly reject the love-shy male (please see Love-shyness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for further info; IMO though, the previous version of the wikipedia article was a little better than one currently shown). Psychologist Gilmartin estimates that love-shyness will prevent 1.5%, or about 1.7 million, American males from ever marrying. It just struck me as rather unusual, how many women may be (and legitimately so) very sympathethic and understanding to the plight and social challenges faced by gay males, but be indifferent to, or share little or no empathy at all, for the straight male love-shy. (I have read Gilmartin's books and research on love-shyness, and based on my own life experiences, believe I am and/or was a love shy male also -- in fact, my very second C-D post was asking for advice on how to deal with earlier love-shyness.)
Gilmartin, the original researcher on love-shyness, classified in his book and also referenced here, the seven criteria of love-shyness as follows (previously available in the former version of the associated wikipedia article; no longer currently available now, so I'm copying and pasting them, from my previous C-D post, from when they were actually present):
Quote:
Gilmartin had seven criteria for each "love-shy man" he included in his study:
He is a virgin.
He rarely goes out socially with women more than just friends.
He has no history of any emotionally close, meaningful relationships of a romantic...nature with any member of the opposite sex.
He has suffered and is continuing to suffer emotionally because of a lack of meaningful female companionship.
He becomes extremely anxiety-ridden over so much as the mere thought of asserting himself vis-a-vis a woman in a casual, friendly way.
He is strictly heterosexual in his romantic and erotic orientations.
Any thoughts or comments please?
Last edited by Phoenix2017; 02-18-2011 at 02:36 PM..
Reason: Corrected typo / adds
gaymen are probably more interesting, stereotypically have a lot in common (gossip, fashion, shopping, men) on the other hand the love-shy profile doesnt look to good for a women who has some experience in relationships
That is because one (the gay male) doesn't want to bed them. They are just on friendly terms.
The other (love-shy) wants to bed them, but these guys aren't showing the "masculine-ness?" that the women want.
Certainly very true -- although, love isn't all about the "bedding" part though, either How many movies/shows have we seen in recent years, where the female heroine was in love with her friend the gay male, but he was unavailable to her that way b/c he preferred men romantically?
The women are not looking to these men for the same purpose. What one looks for in a friend is not exactly the same as the qualifications (ones that go beyond mere friendship) that one requires of a mate. If the love-shy male were equally appealing to the woman in terms of friendship and having interests in common AND was willing to not pursue her romantically and cloud the issue, I suspect those friendships would easily take root.
The problem is that these men who are unappealing to many members of the opposite sex are seeking to rationalize and blame women for not being attracted to them rather than working to improve on the areas where they are lacking. If the man is painfully shy, he needs to practice his conversation skills. If the man is physically unappealing, he needs to work to make the package as presentable as possible. If he is uninteresting because he only enjoys sitting at home perusing his coin collection, he needs to pursue other hobbies so that he can participate in an interesting conversation.
It is no different for women. Additionally, I would question how many of these gay males have personalities close to the straight love-shy men you speak of. Chances are they have little in common, or if they do have much in common, then maybe these love-shy men should look to these women as friends rather than potential partners.
I don't mean all of this to be cruel, but if no one wants to buy the goods you're selling, you need to think about improving the product, rather than continuing to blame the consumer for not wanting it. Women are not all evil witches who won't give a guy a chance any more than all men are egotistical maniacs who only wish for a submissive partner. If you are being rejected by the opposite sex time and time again, it's time to look in the mirror and see what needs work.
Keep in mind, I never said all women were evil, or witches, or sought to demonize them, in any way. In my own example as a love-shy male: I am reasonably good-looking, successful, compassionate, and accomplished person...and yet, I did not have a single g/f ever, until I was already over 30, despite all of the above.
My point is, not all love-shy males are necessarily unappealing in terms of looks, etc. I know at least one other guy (and who was actually a 9-10 in looks), but was so very shy around girls, he never had a g/f either, until like his late 20s.
Somehow, I think if you were to actually read Gilmartin's research, you might understand a little better. In his book, Gilmartin actually compared the love-shy male to being a "male lesbian" in terms of temperament/personality (although I don't think I necessarily agree with that particular assessment of his, lol )
Quote:
Originally Posted by h886
Your premise is once again flawed.
The women are not looking to these men for the same purpose. What one looks for in a friend is not exactly the same as the qualifications (ones that go beyond mere friendship) that one requires of a mate. If the love-shy male were equally appealing to the woman in terms of friendship and having interests in common AND was willing to not pursue her romantically and cloud the issue, I suspect those friendships would easily take root.
The problem is that these men who are unappealing to many members of the opposite sex are seeking to rationalize and blame women for not being attracted to them rather than working to improve on the areas where they are lacking. If the man is painfully shy, he needs to practice his conversation skills. If the man is physically unappealing, he needs to work to make the package as presentable as possible. If he is uninteresting because he only enjoys sitting at home perusing his coin collection, he needs to pursue other hobbies so that he can participate in an interesting conversation.
It is no different for women. Additionally, I would question how many of these gay males have personalities close to the straight love-shy men you speak of. Chances are they have little in common, or if they do have much in common, then maybe these love-shy men should look to these women as friends rather than potential partners.
I don't mean all of this to be cruel, but if no one wants to buy the goods you're selling, you need to think about improving the product, rather than continuing to blame the consumer for not wanting it. Women are not all evil witches who won't give a guy a chance any more than all men are egotistical maniacs who only wish for a submissive partner. If you are being rejected by the opposite sex time and time again, it's time to look in the mirror and see what needs work.
Keep in mind, I never said all women were evil, or witches, or sought to demonize them, in any way. In my own example as a love-shy male: I am reasonably good-looking, successful, compassionate, and accomplished person...and yet, I did not have a single g/f ever, until I was already over 30, despite all of the above.
My point is, not all love-shy males are necessarily unappealing in terms of looks, etc. I know at least one other guy (and who was actually a 9-10 in looks), but was so very shy around girls, he never had a g/f either, until like his late 20s.
Somehow, I think if you were to actually read Gilmartin's research, you might understand a little better. In his book, Gilmartin actually compared the love-shy male to being a "male lesbian" in terms of temperament/personality (although I don't think I necessarily agree with that particular assessment of his, lol )
It's typical that when someone wishes to discredit another speaker, they falsely assume that their points can have no merit, dismissing them as uniformed rather than acknowledging the possibility someone might disagree with them. I feel compelled to suggest that if this is how one conducts themselves around women, it would not be particularly appealing to most. All people enjoy conversation, most a lively debate. Few appreciate being condescended to. A speaker who assumes they know all while everyone around them is woefully uninformed will quickly find that few wish to interact with them in any way, shape or form past the first 30 seconds of conversation.
If you read back through my post to some of the points you might have accidentally overlooked, you will note that I did not say physical unattractiveness was the only possible cause. It's entirely possible for someone to be physically appealing to potential mates, but once they open their mouth, the way they present themselves becomes a turn-off.
Again, if one fails to successfully get the attention of women time after time, they are the variable that needs changed, not the women. Rather than becoming bitter and decreeing the hypocrisy of women liking certain traits better than others while complaining that no one will give them a chance, it would behoove them to examine how they come across to people and try to determine at what point they are losing their audience. Some of these things can be learned. Poor conversationalists can practice. Men who lack interests the opposite sex can relate to can develop new interests and potentially find common ground.
Many women are comfortable with their friends in ways they cannot be with a male who views them as a potential mate. We can share our feelings, flaws, and just generally be ourselves with our friends. Most love-shy guys are still in the potential mate category, where a gay man would never be in that category. It is like how you feel comfortable with your friends, but not with a woman you are trying to impress or on that you hope finds you desirable.
I think you can simplify this by realizing that the love-shy female also exists and has a lower chance of finding a partner. People who don't put themselves out there are just gonna have a lower success rate for lack of trying. If you are shy in love you are probably shy in other aspects of your life too, i.e. platonic friendships. I don't think you can compare relationships with gay men to relationships with straight love-shy men because the woman isn't seeking romance with the gay man.
I think you can simplify this by realizing that the love-shy female also exists and has a lower chance of finding a partner. People who don't put themselves out there are just gonna have a lower success rate for lack of trying.
Good post and very true. One has to make an effort to actually find a partner.
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How many movies/shows have we seen in recent years, where the female heroine was in love with her friend the gay male, but he was unavailable to her that way b/c he preferred men romantically?
Keep in mind, I never said all women were evil, or witches, or sought to demonize them, in any way. In my own example as a love-shy male: I am reasonably good-looking, successful, compassionate, and accomplished person...and yet, I did not have a single g/f ever, until I was already over 30, despite all of the above.
