Should guys always pick up the tab on a date? (how to, husband)

[onihC]

Moderator cut: Removed reference to deleted post.
pokerpokerpoker,
That is how it seems to go MOST of the time. Lots of people like it that way, and a few others don't. And the world keeps spinning .

[JustJulia]

Originally Posted by onihC

You are not getting the question yet. I can mention a lot of things men go through but that’s not what I am asking. You are either not understanding the question or trying to avoid it. Or maybe the question is difficult to answer since not much is pressured for you to do for a man as a man is to do for a woman.

I’ll try to explain again. Chivalry is ONLY expected from a man to a woman. It involves a man pulling your chair, taking your coat off, opening your doors, helping you get in the car, giving you his umbrella or holding it, paying for your dinners/wine/entertainment/drinks/etc., and so on, a long list. Like many of you have said, women ARE NOT expected to do these because these are only FROM MEN TO WOMEN, not the other way around. Ok, do you get that part?

Now, is there anything expected from women TO DO FOR MEN but NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND? (just like chivalry)

We've had this conversation before, but you do not like the answer. What women do in return for gentlemanly behavior is act like ladies.

You open my door. I smile and say thank you.
You pull out my chair. I sit in it.
You take my coat off. I wait while you do something with it.
And so on.

This is what you like to call, "Showing up and doing nothing." I know, it doesn't seem like a big deal for us to sit in a chair ... it really doesn't. Nor is it a big deal to pull out someone's chair, to be fair. Taking someone's coat, offering an arm, holding out an umbrella ... these are small gestures that cost nothing except the barest effort. They are symbolic. They say, "I am the big strong man." And ladies go along with it. "Yes, ooh, you are the big strong man."

You seem to regard being a lady as being take-take-take, hence your comments about "showing up and doing nothing," which you have said many times in other threads. Yet:

• If a woman pulls out a man's chair, that's emasculating, right? Because the person who pulls out the chair is the big strong man. So there IS a value for the woman to sit in the chair when a man pulls it out.
• If a man pulls out a chair and the woman says, "I can get my own chair," that is a snub. Once again, sitting in the chair has symbolic value. "Yes, ooh, you are the big strong man."

Almost every chivalric gesture boils down to this type of symbolism, which, I admit, I overly simplified. It's sexist, absolutely, but the sexism cuts both ways, which is why you have a lot of feminists who don't like their chairs pulled out and their doors opened. It's because they don't like the symbolism.

Paying a bill has nothing to do with chivalry, and you and I have hashed that out before as well. That's basic manners. You could strip away all the pulling out chairs and opening doors and offering umbrellas and standing when a woman enters the room--and most of that is falling by the wayside anyway--and you'd still be stuck with the tenet that if you invite someone somewhere, it's on you to pay for it. I've given you examples of dinners at my house and weddings to show how this rule applies in all sorts of situations, but you keep returning to some idea that a man has to take a woman to dinner and pay for "years" without reciprocation or even thanks.

And one last note, because I am tired of typing and am sure this thread is a mess by now. The big, big advantage that "men who ask" have over "women who never ask" is that those women will only be able to choose from the men who ask them. I agree that the expectation that men do the asking is a heavy burden, but it's also a great power. Women who do not approach men have to make do with whom they can attract.

[pokerpokerpoker]

Originally Posted by onihC

pokerpokerpoker,
That is how it seems to go MOST of the time. Lots of people like it that way, and a few others don't. And the world keeps spinning .

Each to their own man... Offcourse though I don't like the princessy type woman who think it's her right from birth to have the man pay and do everything for her, But I would be more than happy to pay for a sweet down to earth woman. Defenitley.

[fleetiebelle]

Originally Posted by JustJulia

We've had this conversation before, but you do not like the answer. What women do in return for gentlemanly behavior is act like ladies.

You open my door. I smile and say thank you.
You pull out my chair. I sit in it.
You take my coat off. I wait while you do something with it.
And so on.

This is what you like to call, "Showing up and doing nothing." I know, it doesn't seem like a big deal for us to sit in a chair ... it really doesn't. Nor is it a big deal to pull out someone's chair, to be fair. Taking someone's coat, offering an arm, holding out an umbrella ... these are small gestures that cost nothing except the barest effort. They are symbolic. They say, "I am the big strong man." And ladies go along with it. "Yes, ooh, you are the big strong man."

You seem to regard being a lady as being take-take-take, hence your comments about "showing up and doing nothing," which you have said many times in other threads. Yet:

• If a woman pulls out a man's chair, that's emasculating, right? Because the person who pulls out the chair is the big strong man. So there IS a value for the woman to sit in the chair when a man pulls it out.
• If a man pulls out a chair and the woman says, "I can get my own chair," that is a snub. Once again, sitting in the chair has symbolic value. "Yes, ooh, you are the big strong man."

Almost every chivalric gesture boils down to this type of symbolism, which, I admit, I overly simplified. It's sexist, absolutely, but the sexism cuts both ways, which is why you have a lot of feminists who don't like their chairs pulled out and their doors opened. It's because they don't like the symbolism.

Paying a bill has nothing to do with chivalry, and you and I have hashed that out before as well. That's basic manners. You could strip away all the pulling out chairs and opening doors and offering umbrellas and standing when a woman enters the room--and most of that is falling by the wayside anyway--and you'd still be stuck with the tenet that if you invite someone somewhere, it's on you to pay for it. I've given you examples of dinners at my house and weddings to show how this rule applies in all sorts of situations, but you keep returning to some idea that a man has to take a woman to dinner and pay for "years" without reciprocation or even thanks.

And one last note, because I am tired of typing and am sure this thread is a mess by now. The big, big advantage that "men who ask" have over "women who never ask" is that those women will only be able to choose from the men who ask them. I agree that the expectation that men do the asking is a heavy burden, but it's also a great power. Women who do not approach men have to make do with whom they can attract.

Standing ovation!

[PassTheChocolate]

Originally Posted by onihC

Got a bit too sensitive with the word there? Fine, change it to “…as you two enjoy the initial stages…”, better?

There really is nothing you could add or remove change to change the obvious at this point.

And no, I am not seeing it as something negative.

Sherrrrr.

You like to have men do it all for you, go for it. I like it when things revolve around both of us.

I would love for you to quote where I said I like to have men do it all for me and how what I stated means that things don't revolve around the both of us. This should be entertaining.

Why is my preference all of a sudden terrible?

Please quote where I commented on your preference and how terrible it is.

And you may not have noticed ...but your focus is not on your preference. It is on ours.

I am not even saying its wrong. Relax.

Since I have men doing it all for me, how could you assume I am anything BUT relaxed?

I am not taking away your privilege to have men do it all for you.

No, you are not.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

Then why do you have a problem with mine?

I don’t even rely on insults like yours. “Don’t pollute the dating pool” = don’t change how things are, we enjoy it as it is.

LOL....don't rely on it, please. I'd like the world to see you coming. And why would I tell you, in secret code, not to change how things are? You can't.

Whoever asks should pay, you know what that means and another poster also mentioned that. Who does the majority of the asking, taking the initiative, asking for the number, etc. MEN. Can’t deny it really. Now, are there exceptions out there? Sure! But that’s all they are, exceptions. I am not insisting that men SHOULD pay, I am just saying that’s how it goes and that is how it benefits you. Go for it. It’s just cultural differences.

I'm sorry, please repeat that again. I didn't get it the first 30 times.

Why do you get all bitter about it? You have your preference, I have mine.

Again, I have what I want, so what is there to be bitter about? I find your generalizations to be asinine and offensive to women in general (and you know this, since it is your goal to offend). But they are not fact, and you are a stranger on the other end of a server. I don't care how you live your life one way or another. You have no effect on my life. You are not the only one entitled to share your "observations" here.

[lovesMountains]

Originally Posted by smallvillejane

Even if he's being asked out on a date?

Whoever extends the invitation pays

[WestCobb]

This is very, very well said. Viva chivlary... it's what seperates us from the beasts.

Originally Posted by JustJulia

We've had this conversation before, but you do not like the answer. What women do in return for gentlemanly behavior is act like ladies.

You open my door. I smile and say thank you.
You pull out my chair. I sit in it.
You take my coat off. I wait while you do something with it.
And so on.

This is what you like to call, "Showing up and doing nothing." I know, it doesn't seem like a big deal for us to sit in a chair ... it really doesn't. Nor is it a big deal to pull out someone's chair, to be fair. Taking someone's coat, offering an arm, holding out an umbrella ... these are small gestures that cost nothing except the barest effort. They are symbolic. They say, "I am the big strong man." And ladies go along with it. "Yes, ooh, you are the big strong man."

You seem to regard being a lady as being take-take-take, hence your comments about "showing up and doing nothing," which you have said many times in other threads. Yet:

• If a woman pulls out a man's chair, that's emasculating, right? Because the person who pulls out the chair is the big strong man. So there IS a value for the woman to sit in the chair when a man pulls it out.
• If a man pulls out a chair and the woman says, "I can get my own chair," that is a snub. Once again, sitting in the chair has symbolic value. "Yes, ooh, you are the big strong man."

Almost every chivalric gesture boils down to this type of symbolism, which, I admit, I overly simplified. It's sexist, absolutely, but the sexism cuts both ways, which is why you have a lot of feminists who don't like their chairs pulled out and their doors opened. It's because they don't like the symbolism.

Paying a bill has nothing to do with chivalry, and you and I have hashed that out before as well. That's basic manners. You could strip away all the pulling out chairs and opening doors and offering umbrellas and standing when a woman enters the room--and most of that is falling by the wayside anyway--and you'd still be stuck with the tenet that if you invite someone somewhere, it's on you to pay for it. I've given you examples of dinners at my house and weddings to show how this rule applies in all sorts of situations, but you keep returning to some idea that a man has to take a woman to dinner and pay for "years" without reciprocation or even thanks.

And one last note, because I am tired of typing and am sure this thread is a mess by now. The big, big advantage that "men who ask" have over "women who never ask" is that those women will only be able to choose from the men who ask them. I agree that the expectation that men do the asking is a heavy burden, but it's also a great power. Women who do not approach men have to make do with whom they can attract.

[WestCobb]

I've said this before, but I think the man should always pay. I don't think much of a man who lets a woman pay for any portion of a date, even if she invited him. You'll notice that when a group of men go out together and share a tab, it's almost always the alphas who pick it up. When it's the non alphas who want to pay, it's a little awkward because it doesn't "feel" right. Paying for things (a.k.a. "providing") isn't a burden; it's the privilege of a strong man. I don't know what kind of guy wouldn't want to take advantage of the opportunity to pay for something for a woman he's having sex with or wants to have sex with.

[ChessieMom]

Originally Posted by onihC

You are not answering the question. .

You refuse to read.

Originally Posted by onihC

You are mentioning things that can happen to ANYBODY. .

CAN, yes, but we all know who they happen to.

Originally Posted by onihC

Men are seen as women’s ATM, freebie ticket, and so on. .

Again...this is YOUR perception. I don't know a single woman that views a man in such a silly light. And I'm not saying such women don't exist, but you want to paint a wide wide swath based on women like the "Sheen goddesses". Pure nonsense.

Originally Posted by onihC

I somehow imagined it would be hard for women to answer this question. .

Not hard at all. Again, you refuse to read. Julia nailed it perfectly here:

"Almost every chivalric gesture boils down to this type of symbolism, which, I admit, I overly simplified. It's sexist, absolutely, but the sexism cuts both ways, which is why you have a lot of feminists who don't like their chairs pulled out and their doors opened. It's because they don't like the symbolism.

Paying a bill has nothing to do with chivalry, and you and I have hashed that out before as well. That's basic manners. You could strip away all the pulling out chairs and opening doors and offering umbrellas and standing when a woman enters the room--and most of that is falling by the wayside anyway--and you'd still be stuck with the tenet that if you invite someone somewhere, it's on you to pay for it."

You simply refuse to acknowledge what is so very clearly evident to everyone else. But whatever works for ya dude.

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by WestCobb

I've said this before, but I think the man should always pay. I don't think much of a man who lets a woman pay for any portion of a date, even if she invited him. You'll notice that when a group of men go out together and share a tab, it's almost always the alphas who pick it up. When it's the non alphas who want to pay, it's a little awkward because it doesn't "feel" right. Paying for things (a.k.a. "providing") isn't a burden; it's the privilege of a strong man.

Thank you.

I don't know what kind of guy wouldn't want to take advantage of the opportunity to pay for something for a woman he's having sex with or wants to have sex with.

The kind that won't have sex...? Or a 2nd date, for that matter.