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Old 05-04-2011, 08:30 PM
FBJ
 
Location: Tall Building down by the river
33,614 posts, read 22,894,364 times
Reputation: 7383
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyShouldIWorry View Post
As usual, Denny seems to miss the big picture.

It's not that feminists told women to go for the types that they do. Early on, they told them to look for men who were "better" than the men women married in the 50s and earlier. They even gave good examples of what to look for. It's not that men from that era were so bad but they had rigid sex roles in that era and it was difficult for most men to break out of this. To some extent, this was understandable because men had the full responsibility for bringing home the bacon then and this often left little room to maneuver.

At that time, many young people read this material and resolved to do better. If they listened to their mothers at all, they should have had a good idea where to start. I certainly did!

Guys who were not among the top 10% of most desirable (the guys who have no need to change) often attempted to completely change their approach to women and meeting their asperations. This was not always easy, since they had been drilled with many contrary ideas from an early age. However they initially tried. Did it work? Rarely.

Why? Well the young women were also reading this stuff and the message that they usually got was that they just deserved better. They looked at their own family for an example of what not to do and what they usually saw was a middle age father with a paunch, living in an average suburban bungalow. Life was boring.

"Better" didn't mean finding a man with more modern attitudes but instead involved finding a good looking guy with family money, if possible. If not, they could always use their new found right to earn a living to support a guy who at least looked the part.

Sure, there have always been gold diggers but the 15 years before the AIDS era, were the golden years for such guys. Things still aren't that bad, either, since women often think that if a guy looks good, he is good. Undesirable men probably have STDs.

Marriage and relationships have been in decline and divorce rates have soared ever since.


LOL, Men are gulity of that too. Years ago a friend of mine found out that an unattractive girl had an STD and was like-"If you cant trust an unattractive girl like her to be disease who can you trust"


Men or women want to believe if someone looks good then they are DISEASE FREE-lol There was a comedian who said one of his friends said-"The girl didn't look like she had anything"

WHY?.......because she was good looking
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:41 AM
 
7,492 posts, read 8,214,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishViking View Post
Funny how women always "deserve better" men for some reason [what do they do to deserve better? complain about the lack of better choices?] while men shouldn't think they deserve anyone unless they're among the before mentioned upper 10% desireable ones...(i.e. those who have good enough options to skip these women).
Men and women are BOTH guilty of thinking they deserve better. Think about the guy who worked hard to become a doctor. College, med school, residency and fellowships. He spent all those years and all that money to get to where he is now and he's making BIG money. Chances are, he's going to feel like he deserves only the best because in his mind, he shouldn't have to settle for someone ordinary. But relationships aren't about getting what you deserve. This is something the nice guy fails to realize. He thinks he'd make a better partner than the bad boy and probably thinks he's a better person. And yet, the girl passes him over leaving him to lament how he's more deserving than the bad boy that got her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishViking View Post
Yeah, but the men were also pressured to get a wife, a house, a car and start making babies, do you suppose all the guys wives were prices themselves? Or that It was fun for him to stay married forever with some woman he had to marry to follow the norm(like she did).
Whether the women were prizes or not is an entirely separate issue. What I'm talking about is how not being financially independent can force you to settle for someone you might not normally want to be with. Now that women have their own careers, they don't feel pressure to find someone who can be a good provider. But keep in mind that women are still pressured to get married far more than men are. There's pressure to have kids, which women can't do after a certain age without serious risks. There's the stigma of having kids out of wedlock (which is starting to diminish). There's the stigma of being a single mom. A man can put off getting married until his late 30s or early 40s and still have kids. But a woman who does that suddenly finds herself competing with women 10-20 years younger.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:03 AM
 
1,741 posts, read 1,296,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
A man can put off getting married until his late 30s or early 40s and still have kids. But a woman who does that suddenly finds herself competing with women 10-20 years younger.
Yes, but a man in his 20's will find himself compeeting will men 10-20 years older... and so on.
There is no way I can compete financially with someone who's been in his career for 10-15 years. And most women my age only go for it when they get everything. And being fairly well-off economically is part of that, a part which is kinda hard to pull off as an engineering student.

When it all comes around women do make the bottleneck. Women do decide how much stuff happens, because for every woman who let's something happen there is a 100 guys waiting in line.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:05 AM
 
2,096 posts, read 820,184 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
Men and women are BOTH guilty of thinking they deserve better. Think about the guy who worked hard to become a doctor. College, med school, residency and fellowships. He spent all those years and all that money to get to where he is now and he's making BIG money. Chances are, he's going to feel like he deserves only the best because in his mind, he shouldn't have to settle for someone ordinary. But relationships aren't about getting what you deserve. This is something the nice guy fails to realize. He thinks he'd make a better partner than the bad boy and probably thinks he's a better person. And yet, the girl passes him over leaving him to lament how he's more deserving than the bad boy that got her.
Good morning,

I can't speak for SwedishViking, but I've heard statements like this before and am pretty sure he's also referring to women who didn't work hard or accomplish anything, unlike your doctor example, yet believe they "deserve better".
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:26 AM
 
1,741 posts, read 1,296,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123 View Post
Good morning,

I can't speak for SwedishViking, but I've heard statements like this before and am pretty sure he's also referring to women who didn't work hard or accomplish anything, unlike your doctor example, yet believe they "deserve better".
Yes I do mean those.

Take any 25 year old girl with 2 kids from her teens living in some suburb. She won't feel she deserves anything but the best, While most of us men will see her as damaged goods if she got two kids and still couldn't hold on to the guy. (no matter what the case really is)

And if I look at those who I wnet to school with when I was 15, i think 3 out of 30 are still studdying to something at university level, the rest are somewhere between barely passing highschool or not even goen to highschool. They'll get tricked by the clerk in the supermarket lol.

I see all those people, unemployed, still hanging with the same crowds, with the same weekly routines the guys are miserable as hell, the girls were hot stuff a couple of years ago, but since they've been smoking and drinking since they were 12 or 13 and had 1 or 2 babies by now you can see premature age signs in spite of them only being 20-22.
Yet they'll deny the guys who at least have decent jobs. They're not good enough for them, but these girls themselves are not desireable for someone who isn't intrested in a 24/7 drama and problems.

I used to question why some demanded a partner to at least have a bachelors degree, now I see why. Talking to my old peers(same age) is like speaking to children, they just want this, want that, but none of them are willing to work for anything, especially not the "princesses". Someone shoould break the news for a 22 year old girl with 2 kids on welfare that wether she used to be a 10 or not, she isn't anymore.

I might add that these are the girls I would have sold a testicle to be with 5 years ago, and now I can't even see what I wanned with them.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Not Nowhere
1,321 posts, read 982,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishViking View Post
And being fairly well-off economically is part of that, a part which is kinda hard to pull off as an engineering student.
Not for me, it wasn't. Yeah, I was crazy po' like a mofo, but the girls I dated were at least smart enough to ask: "Engineers make good money, don't they?"
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:39 AM
 
7,492 posts, read 8,214,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishViking View Post
Yes, but a man in his 20's will find himself compeeting will men 10-20 years older... and so on.
There is no way I can compete financially with someone who's been in his career for 10-15 years. And most women my age only go for it when they get everything. And being fairly well-off economically is part of that, a part which is kinda hard to pull off as an engineering student.

When it all comes around women do make the bottleneck. Women do decide how much stuff happens, because for every woman who let's something happen there is a 100 guys waiting in line.
A man in his 20s may not be able to compete financially with a man in his 40s, but he does have some advantages. First, he's younger. A woman who wants kids is going to want someone who can actually keep up with those kids and not die of a heart attack before the kid graduates high school. Second, how many middle aged men do you know who are still attractive and in good shape? The majority are overweight and probably losing their hair. Third, an older man is more likely to have an ex-wife and kids from a previous marriage, something younger women will most likely want to avoid. So there's a trade-off. If a woman is holding out for Mr. Perfect, she's going to discover that he doesn't exist. The older man may be making good money, but he may not have his looks and may have baggage she's not willing to deal with. And if you think there are 100 guys waiting in line for every women, just wait til you get older. As someone alluded to in another thread, the tables turn after 35.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123 View Post
I can't speak for SwedishViking, but I've heard statements like this before and am pretty sure he's also referring to women who didn't work hard or accomplish anything, unlike your doctor example, yet believe they "deserve better".
People's ideas of what they deserve are also shaped by their environment. Take 3 single 25 year old girls without kids. If one of them meets a great guy who's tall, good looking, and has a high income, the other two are not going to settle for less. Why? Because in their minds, they deserve nothing less than what their friend got. Men do this as well. If a guy lands a really hot girl, the rest of his friends are going to want a girl just as good if not better. And it doesn't even have to be your friend. It could just be someone you know. You see him or her with someone really great and you think "I'm so much better than her. If she can snag a guy like that, why should I settle for some average Joe?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishViking View Post
Take any 25 year old girl with 2 kids from her teens living in some suburb. She won't feel she deserves anything but the best, While most of us men will see her as damaged goods if she got two kids and still couldn't hold on to the guy. (no matter what the case really is)
This is probably not the best example. A woman with kids is more likely to be picky because it's not just herself that she's putting at risk, but also her kids. Most people I know with kids are EXTREMELY careful about who they let into the lives of their children. But I understand your overall point, which is that there are a lot of women out there who aren't great catches and yet they act entitled. This is kind of like the fat, short middle-aged bald guy thinking he deserves nothing less than a 20something supermodel. No matter who you are, you have to be realistic about who you have a chance with and you who you don't.
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Old 05-05-2011, 12:52 PM
 
951 posts, read 988,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
As usual, WhyShouldIWorry misrepresents what feminism is about. Feminists didn't tell women that they should hold out for Mr. Perfect. They simply told them to stop settling for the kind of men women might've settled for in the 50s.
Read my post carefully. Nowhere did I say they were told to hold out for Mr. Perfect. In fact, the early writings were made to seem so reasonable. They were not only misinterpreted but were a useful tool in making their agenda seem reasonable. Many guys were conned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
Back then, a man could use his income to make up for his looks and personality.
Now they use money and looks to make up for personality. Subtle change.
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:30 PM
 
1,741 posts, read 1,296,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post

This is probably not the best example. A woman with kids is more likely to be picky because it's not just herself that she's putting at risk, but also her kids. Most people I know with kids are EXTREMELY careful about who they let into the lives of their children. But I understand your overall point, which is that there are a lot of women out there who aren't great catches and yet they act entitled. This is kind of like the fat, short middle-aged bald guy thinking he deserves nothing less than a 20something supermodel. No matter who you are, you have to be realistic about who you have a chance with and you who you don't.
Granted the average swedish woman might be thinner, and thus generally more attractive than the average american woman, but I wouldn't turn down hitting on an average jane. And I'm neither short nor bald nor out of shape by a long shot. I'm not the tallest or anything but at least slightly taller than average (I'm 6'4, stopped growing at 15) but not many women are taller. Of course women who want a taller guy can find plenty but I don't think height is an issue after 6 feet. Most who are very short <5'9 are foreigners and get liked for their exotic traits instead.
Anyway
Thing is I see women who sticks their noses out like they're entitled Mr percfect all the time, but I never see this "short bald guy who wants a model"
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:43 PM
 
7,492 posts, read 8,214,359 times
Reputation: 6255
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyShouldIWorry View Post
In fact, the early writings were made to seem so reasonable. They were not only misinterpreted but were a useful tool in making their agenda seem reasonable. Many guys were conned.
If the writings were misinterpreted, then the fault lies with the people who misinterpreted them, not with the writings or the people who wrote them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyShouldIWorry View Post
Now they use money and looks to make up for personality. Subtle change.
Actually it's a big change. Women have been judged on their looks since the dawn of time. Now men are being judged on their looks and they're complaining about how unfair it is.
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