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Old 07-11-2011, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Fairfax
2,904 posts, read 6,904,751 times
Reputation: 1282

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro2113 View Post
But why is this (The statement in bold) associated with masculinity? These are the types of traits that both males and females should have.

The problem I have with gender roles is how femininity is associated with weakness and masculinity is associated with strength. For example, when a guy is acting like a coward or whining too much both males and females will call him a "p*ssy" which is slang for the female sex organ. They will also tell that same guy to get some courage by telling him to "man up" or "grow a pair". I can't help but think that by using these terms to associate with strong character traits and weak ones only reinforces what we think about gender roles and are in some ways sexist.
Yes a strong woman should know her own boundaries also, I agree.

I'm not interested in debating whether or not certain terms are sexist...I'm trying to convey the feelings people have that I've observed. The problem with a forum like this is we can all sit back analytically but in reality relationships/attraction are based on feelings.

For the record, I don't think strength is exclusively male. A strong character is good for both genders. But I'm not going to sugar coat it: strength of leadership is masculine. Do some women lead companies/countries well? Sure. However,the majority of women want a man who can lead their relationship. If this is sexist, oh well.
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Old 07-11-2011, 04:16 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 8,186,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave View Post
Yes a strong woman should know her own boundaries also, I agree.

I'm not interested in debating whether or not certain terms are sexist...I'm trying to convey the feelings people have that I've observed. The problem with a forum like this is we can all sit back analytically but in reality relationships/attraction are based on feelings.

For the record, I don't think strength is exclusively male. A strong character is good for both genders. But I'm not going to sugar coat it: strength of leadership is masculine. Do some women lead companies/countries well? Sure. However,the majority of women want a man who can lead their relationship. If this is sexist, oh well.
But to what extent? I don't think women are seeking out a leader but a partner. Someone that pulls their own weight around but still takes their advice and opinions under consideration.

Imagine a situation where a husband and wife has been saving up for there kids college funds. One day the husband just decides that he's just going to use that money to go to Vegas and blows it. The wife knows this is wrong but decides not to say anything because hey he's the man of the house, the leader of the family and no matter how stupid his choices are I still support him.

The funny thing is is that there are a lot of guys out there who want the same thing. Not a submissive woman that they can dominate but a partner who stands by them.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:22 PM
 
19,045 posts, read 25,151,745 times
Reputation: 13485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro2113 View Post
But why is this (The statement in bold) associated with masculinity? These are the types of traits that both males and females should have.

The problem I have with gender roles is how femininity is associated with weakness and masculinity is associated with strength. For example, when a guy is acting like a coward or whining too much both males and females will call him a "p*ssy" which is slang for the female sex organ. They will also tell that same guy to get some courage by telling him to "man up" or "grow a pair". I can't help but think that by using these terms to associate with strong character traits and weak ones only reinforces what we think about gender roles and are in some ways sexist.
Well stated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave View Post
For the record, I don't think strength is exclusively male. A strong character is good for both genders. But I'm not going to sugar coat it: strength of leadership is masculine. Do some women lead companies/countries well? Sure. However,the majority of women want a man who can lead their relationship. If this is sexist, oh well.
Well, it is sexist. I don't know if the majority want this, maybe they do, tho a link would be nice. Either way, there are still millions of women that do not need or want to be led around. Frankly, the very idea of having my man lead our relationship is such preposterous idea that I can hardly fathom it. But, given the net, pretty much anything goes. I'm also of the mind that women that desire to be led are intellectually stunted, as well as their counterparts.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:26 PM
 
6,547 posts, read 7,265,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
Well, it is sexist. I don't know if the majority want this, maybe they do, tho a link would be nice. Either way, there are still millions of women that do not need or want to be led around. Frankly, the very idea of having my man lead our relationship is such preposterous idea that I can hardly fathom it. But, given the net, pretty much anything goes. I'm also of the mind that women that desire to be led are intellectually stunted, as well as their counterparts.
Isn’t “leading” also taking the initiative, taking care of planning decisions, taking care of expenses, etc.? This is something the majority of women prefer men to do which makes me wonder if women do prefer to be led around after all.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:38 PM
 
19,045 posts, read 25,151,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onihC View Post
Isn’t “leading” also taking the initiative, taking care of planning decisions, taking care of expenses, etc.? This is something the majority of women prefer men to do which makes me wonder if women do prefer to be led around after all.
A majority of women across the US are the one's who run the household finances, run the home, plan just about everything, and are obviously required to take the intiative. For example, the dh and I are attending his brother's wedding. We'll be out there for a week. Who do you think made the arrangements (airline tickets, car rental, etc)? He just asked me yesterday what we're doing for a gift, let alone the fact that I'm helping with the wedding itself. If I were to poll it, I have no doubt a majority share my responsibilities.

Does that mean I lead the relationship? No. Frankly, this whole notion of men doing all the planning is out there in la la land. And no, I do not consider the guy asking for the first date, or paying for the first date, to be some relationship leader.
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Old 07-11-2011, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Fairfax
2,904 posts, read 6,904,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
Well stated.

Well, it is sexist. I don't know if the majority want this, maybe they do, tho a link would be nice. Either way, there are still millions of women that do not need or want to be led around. Frankly, the very idea of having my man lead our relationship is such preposterous idea that I can hardly fathom it. But, given the net, pretty much anything goes. I'm also of the mind that women that desire to be led are intellectually stunted, as well as their counterparts.
Whatever works for you
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Old 07-11-2011, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Fairfax
2,904 posts, read 6,904,751 times
Reputation: 1282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro2113 View Post
But to what extent? I don't think women are seeking out a leader but a partner. Someone that pulls their own weight around but still takes their advice and opinions under consideration.

Imagine a situation where a husband and wife has been saving up for there kids college funds. One day the husband just decides that he's just going to use that money to go to Vegas and blows it. The wife knows this is wrong but decides not to say anything because hey he's the man of the house, the leader of the family and no matter how stupid his choices are I still support him.

The funny thing is is that there are a lot of guys out there who want the same thing. Not a submissive woman that they can dominate but a partner who stands by them.
I think you and Branwyn are just looking for a good argument. I never said a man should be supported when he is harming the family, but nice scarecrow!

The two of you seem to have it all figured out for yourselves-best of luck. I know what has worked best for me. I don't have time to go into it now but the leadership I'm talking about doesn't equal domination.
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Old 07-11-2011, 10:28 PM
 
19,045 posts, read 25,151,745 times
Reputation: 13485
Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave View Post
I think you and Branwyn are just looking for a good argument. I never said a man should be supported when he is harming the family, but nice scarecrow!

The two of you seem to have it all figured out for yourselves-best of luck. I know what has worked best for me. I don't have time to go into it now but the leadership I'm talking about doesn't equal domination.
I won't deny that I'm largely here to argue, specifically to debate gender issues. I will say that I suspect your relationship leadership ideas, no, ideals, are a facade...only to be truly actualized in old school TV drama and short story erotica. I'll also submit that it goes across social classes to boot. The day-to-day of life is often far more complicated than a subjectively derived hypothesis, providing there is more than one player. As in the sciences, you won't know for sure until you do it (or take it to the bench).
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Old 07-11-2011, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
Reputation: 11416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight2009 View Post
IMO, women are socially-engineered from the beginning in their youth, to prefer the "alpha male". It doesn't have to be that way though. That's just what society wishes, and therefore what is done on a practical level.
You need to turn off the TV and live your own life; do you choose to be a sheep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by onihC View Post
Isn’t “leading” also taking the initiative, taking care of planning decisions, taking care of expenses, etc.? This is something the majority of women prefer men to do which makes me wonder if women do prefer to be led around after all.
Not my experience at all.
I'm either an equal partner or there's no relationship.

Last edited by chielgirl; 07-11-2011 at 10:51 PM..
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Old 07-11-2011, 10:44 PM
 
2,501 posts, read 3,642,939 times
Reputation: 1803
I don't prefer the Alpha Male. Usually he's an alpha D*ck! Lol
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