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Unread 08-30-2011, 08:56 AM
 
14,590 posts, read 8,485,395 times
Reputation: 7827
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Bricks View Post
I think Men are starting to realize that marriage only benefits women, especially when its time to get a divorce.
Probably true about divorce laws favoring women in America. Marriage benefits both man and woman given the right reasons for marriage and a genuine commitment from both .

 
Unread 08-30-2011, 09:12 AM
 
Location: The #1 sunshine state, Arizona.
10,516 posts, read 8,418,094 times
Reputation: 57272
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
This is true. Unfortunately, it hasn't stopped the less educated from having kids out of wedlock, which is the worst possible outcome, IMO (financially, and in many other ways).
The thing I find insulting is the unmarried couple with a few kids in tow, who claim to be engaged and will refer to their partner as "fiance'." Wake up ladies, he has his penis inside you, and one foot out the door. If he walks, it's the mother and children who stand lose their economic footing.
 
Unread 08-30-2011, 09:15 AM
 
2,081 posts, read 690,308 times
Reputation: 968
Quote:
Originally Posted by zonababe View Post
The thing I find insulting is the unmarried couple with a few kids in tow, who claim to be engaged and will refer to their partner as "fiance'." Wake up ladies, he has his penis inside you, and one foot out the door.
LMAO at the portion in bold. Good one, I really laughed out loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zonababe View Post
If he walks, it's the mother and children who stand lose their economic footing.
Most women work (even married ones) and courts enforce child support. We have got to get out of this mentality of women being helpless victims to the whims of stereotypical male breadwinners. With easy divorce these days, being married doesn't seem to stop men (or women) from leaving.
 
Unread 08-30-2011, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Cumberland Co., TN
10,303 posts, read 9,670,248 times
Reputation: 10063
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djuna View Post
That is absolutely false. People remained married during the 50s because it was the cultural norm. Divorces and illegitimate children were unacceptable.

You have to understand the history of marriage to fully comprehend why it is declining today.

Marriage throughout history, in almost every culture and time, was a contract between two families. The wife, usually a young teen, brought with her a dowry and handed over all her rights and possessions to her husband.

Even up until the modern times this was normal. A woman didn't bring a dowry but her property became his and she had no rights.

During the early Suffrage Movement while women were trying to get the right to vote, they were also actively seeking the right to retain their property and have some equal rights within marriage.

Natural Law philosophers in England and in the US were defending the inferior status of women so these concepts were reflected in the Laws being passed.

Jump forward to this day and age and we clearly see the very precedent for marriage changing. Marriage is no longer based on the woman losing her rights and men no longer enter marriage gaining more than they entered the marriage with. The contractual agreements have changed, the culture has changed, the expectations have changed. Marriage is now based on love and we all know love is delicate and easily bruised. There is no cultural expectation to remain married, society doesn't shun divorced people like it used to.

And thus marriage has evolved into something transient. I have no doubt it will continue to evolve into something else or maybe one day become extinct.

Society does not crumble because people get divorced nor does it fall apart if people just live together and have a contract written up. Other countries do this, I don't see why the US won't get out of this religious mindset that marriage is the be all and end all.
^^This is all the explaination you need as to why marriage rates are declining.
 
Unread 08-30-2011, 09:21 AM
 
2,081 posts, read 690,308 times
Reputation: 968
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djuna View Post
That is absolutely false. People remained married during the 50s because it was the cultural norm. Divorces and illegitimate children were unacceptable.

You have to understand the history of marriage to fully comprehend why it is declining today.

Marriage throughout history, in almost every culture and time, was a contract between two families. The wife, usually a young teen, brought with her a dowry and handed over all her rights and possessions to her husband.

Even up until the modern times this was normal. A woman didn't bring a dowry but her property became his and she had no rights.

During the early Suffrage Movement while women were trying to get the right to vote, they were also actively seeking the right to retain their property and have some equal rights within marriage.

Natural Law philosophers in England and in the US were defending the inferior status of women so these concepts were reflected in the Laws being passed.

Jump forward to this day and age and we clearly see the very precedent for marriage changing. Marriage is no longer based on the woman losing her rights and men no longer enter marriage gaining more than they entered the marriage with. The contractual agreements have changed, the culture has changed, the expectations have changed. Marriage is now based on love and we all know love is delicate and easily bruised. There is no cultural expectation to remain married, society doesn't shun divorced people like it used to.

And thus marriage has evolved into something transient. I have no doubt it will continue to evolve into something else or maybe one day become extinct.

Society does not crumble because people get divorced nor does it fall apart if people just live together and have a contract written up. Other countries do this, I don't see why the US won't get out of this religious mindset that marriage is the be all and end all.
Well said, Djuna, +1.

I'm fine with this too, outside of the social problems statistically linked to single mother-headed households. I want women to have freedom, don't want them to lose their rights, and don't want them to feel the need to get married because of societal pressure.

Great analysis of the change from contractual marriage to emotion-based marriage.
 
Unread 08-30-2011, 10:40 AM
 
18,355 posts, read 10,244,545 times
Reputation: 12278
Hi Freedom

I'm on my iPhone. Haven't figure out how to copy/paste yet. If you google "suicide rates among divorced men" you will find a study addressing this in one of the first hits. Suicide is highest among divorced men (same as widowed men based on a different study I was reading), lowest for married men, and single men fall somewhere in between.

I'm not sure what to tell you about the nagging and irresponsible men comments (from you). The literature tells that single men engage in more risky behavior. Women, over all, tend to health issues and preventative care to a greater degree than me. It's not surprising many pressure their husband's in this regard. I suppose I could be considered a nag in your framework since I do pressure my husband to get his physicals and teeth cleanings on a regular basis. Although, he does the same for me in other areas. All well.

I agree that gender roles can take a hike.

To address the ideal portrayal of marriage, from what I can tell it encompasses a narrow demographic. I happen to fall within that demographic so it's pretty easy to see. I find it to be problematic that anyone attempts to generalize these findings across the board to any and all groups. It's dishonest and I can see why that would ruffle feathers.
 
Unread 08-30-2011, 10:57 AM
 
2,081 posts, read 690,308 times
Reputation: 968
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
Hi Freedom

I'm on my iPhone. Haven't figure out how to copy/paste yet. If you google "suicide rates among divorced men" you will find a study addressing this in one of the first hits. Suicide is highest among divorced men (same as widowed men based on a different study I was reading), lowest for married men, and single men fall somewhere in between.

I'm not sure what to tell you about the nagging and irresponsible men comments (from you). The literature tells that single men engage in more risky behavior. Women, over all, tend to health issues and preventative care to a greater degree than me. It's not surprising many pressure their husband's in this regard. I suppose I could be considered a nag in your framework since I do pressure my husband to get his physicals and teeth cleanings on a regular basis. Although, he does the same for me in other areas. All well.

I agree that gender roles can take a hike.

To address the ideal portrayal of marriage, from what I can tell it encompasses a narrow demographic. I happen to fall within that demographic so it's pretty easy to see. I find it to be problematic that anyone attempts to generalize these findings across the board to any and all groups. It's dishonest and I can see why that would ruffle feathers.
Hi Braunwyn,

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I've looked at the suicide studies, my gripe is with the omission of negative consequences of divorce in these type of articles, because that should play a role in someone's decision to get married. If I wrote an article saying why something is so good for someone, I'd give the entire picture and potential consequences if it goes wrong.

In my profession, I see far too many divorced people who seem to have no idea of what they would be facing, and many who didn't even want to get divorced. I guess I have a soft spot for them, both men and women.

As an aside, I like that you are acknowledging the role class-level plays in your view of these Relationship Forum topics. Perception is reality for most of us.
 
Unread 08-30-2011, 11:11 AM
 
2,503 posts, read 1,538,180 times
Reputation: 1714
Quote:
Originally Posted by zonababe View Post
The thing I find insulting is the unmarried couple with a few kids in tow, who claim to be engaged and will refer to their partner as "fiance'." Wake up ladies, he has his penis inside you, and one foot out the door. If he walks, it's the mother and children who stand lose their economic footing.
This!! This is what I was trying to get at with the unmarried cohabiting couples with kids.
 
Unread 08-30-2011, 11:49 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
3,524 posts, read 1,710,345 times
Reputation: 2288
We're getting pretty far afield here when there really isn't much reason to make this complicated.

Before marriage....
Marriage hits an all-time low in the United States-l0gqc3i8bxxdnwnxvib7f5ibqbyl.jpeg

After marriage....
Marriage hits an all-time low in the United States-sf0pe0tpuvbdf6mmliulqlhxxy4y.jpeg
 
Unread 08-30-2011, 12:07 PM
 
12,712 posts, read 9,684,696 times
Reputation: 8545
Quote:
Originally Posted by JordanJP View Post
I don't have a problem with that, but I do think it's really too bad that so many couples get divorced, and so soon after the actual marriage these days. It just makes me feel a little bad and nervous... what if I meet a girl and we get married? Will she be as committed as I am?

my generation is awfully flaky... guess I'm the exception rather than the norm.
I think the culture of divorce & out-of-wedlock child bearing are what has made people of GenX and younger flaky.

Jillian Strauss mentions the divorce effect in her book, Unhooked Generation, as one of many significant factors that make us flaky:


Amazon.com: Unhooked Generation: The Truth About Why We're Still Single: Jillian Straus: Books
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