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Old 10-30-2011, 04:05 PM
 
2 posts, read 887 times
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A couple of the posts here have ignited this post. I have been a visitor on this forum for a while now.

One thing I love about the internet is that you can have frank discussions. A person can also say what is exactly on their mind without regard. Things we would not say in public. It seems that many of us lose that inner voice that tells us what is appropriate or not to say in an online forum. We voice those deep thoughts, that we all have, regardless of the situation.

The posts about the men caring about the number of men a woman has had sex with in her past and they other post about the pledge to remain a virgin until marriage alarms me to a certain degree, but I also see it as a patriarchal society just attempting to define women: The Madonna or the Wh**e and The Saint or the Sinner. The definition that applied to women since Judeo/ Christian era.

So, I ask, is it nature or nurture which have us returning to this point for thousands of years? One can argue that you can not say all of human history if you know anything about the ancient history of Western Civilization. Then one can also argue that if you look at indigenous tribes of South America and Africa that seems, even today, to be lost in the past this dichotomy does seem natural. Even look at the Middle East where women are still hidden and all female sexuality is behind a veil.

Nature or Nurture?

I am curious and I will start the conversation with the following.

*******
A few concerns about the "Purity Pledge" for me, in the 21st century, is that I would not want to launch my daughter into a world without experience and armed without knowledge. No, I am not speaking of promoting sexual promiscuity, so do not even attempt to go there.
 
What I am speaking of is how our youth today, and mostly young males and to an extent young females, are learning about sex via internet porn. I am not anti porn, either, but I will note, that I am against the extreme porn that has hit the internet and pushing more and more boundaries of a woman's body. A market driven by men.
 
Once a person reaches a certain age, of healthy mind and body, they do start having natural sexual urges. More and more young men are reaching for porn since it is no longer limited to Dad's Playboys in the box in the closet, you can access it anywhere. With the internet came the rise of porn and, while I understand the debate for porn is a topic onto itself, porn is no longer one man and one woman. Mainstream porn has become more and more brutal. I want to stress again, I am not anti-porn.
 
Could you imagine launching a young woman, without experience and knowledge, into this world? A world where breasts do not look like real breasts, women are hairless and the extremes that the woman’s body is put through? Could your image ever not allowing them to know and experience for themselves what is normal sexual behavior and what is not?
 
This is what alarms me about this. Two virgins together at marriage, with no previous experience or history, and a young man armed with what he has seen and regardless of what you think, your boys are watching this.
 
I work with teenagers from the ages of 16-20 as a counselor. Even today, parents are not having realistic discussions about sex with them. I am not wanting to blame the Religious Right, but it is shocking to me the girls and the boys I speak with. One girl even told me about her allowing a young man to touch her. The first time for her, she was 16 and he was 17. He pulled his hand away in shock at the touch of hair. His idea of what is normal is what he has seen…. I worked with a young man who had a nickname for young ladies like this, Hairy Mary. We are in a new age.
 
Now, the other flip side to this, The Madonna or the *****? The man who seeks out his virgin bride to maintain purity. It is as old as time. Virginity was a commodity to be traded up until the 20th century.
 
It is nature or is it nurture?
 
Prostitution is the worlds oldest profession for a reason. Prostitution, courtesans, mistresses and whatever else you want to call them, have been around for most of the document history. There is a reason. I firmly believe.

Is there no difference between a woman who has had sex with, for a fun adult lifestyle, with 10-20 men and the prostitute who gets paid by the hour with that in a day or a week? Many of the comments I have read on this forum tell me that there is no difference between the two by many of the men. Both are declared a *****. Actually, that idea is more common then people realize.

One common theme I read over and over again was that a woman only had sex with numerous men due to being emotionally unstable. Again, limiting a woman’s sexuality and exploration of that sexuality.

With all of that, I am curious to start the conversation. Put it out there.

*I will note for the conversation that I am a female, but you probably figured that out. I withheld my actual location. I work with troubled teens… I will also stress that I work with SUBURBAN teens and not urban teens. I am speaking of your middle America and the Middle class.
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Old 10-31-2011, 01:07 AM
 
4,858 posts, read 3,198,798 times
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Everyone enters this world 100% innocent...a total blank slate. What changes that, as a person gets older? People gradually change, and become more or less of either extreme you cited, b/c of societal influences and pressures. What they see going on around them, and how they react to it. Cause and effect.

The online adult/pornography industry can and should be blamed for much of the negative contemporary factors and ills that you had mentioned above regarding young people regarding physical intimacy. It's a tragedy that the attempt to stop this from happening years ago (i.e., the CDA a.k.a. Communications Decency Act) failed. The adult industry is a despicable cancer and a loathsome blot on the soul of humanity. I work in IT, but if I had known in advance the moral decay and rot that would arise from the online adult industry, I believe it would have been better had the Internet never been invented at all. The bad on the Internet outweighs the good...but now it's simply too late, as one cannot put the genie back into the bottle, and un-invent the Internet now
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:01 AM
 
8,681 posts, read 7,661,918 times
Reputation: 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_listening View Post
I am not wanting to blame the Religious Right...
Why not? Their attitude toward sex and sexuality is oppressive, repressive, unnatural, puritanical, inhibiting, punitive, and warped. By making sex a moral issue, they foster all of the things you said in your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight2009 View Post
Everyone enters this world 100% innocent...a total blank slate. What changes that, as a person gets older? People gradually change, and become more or less of either extreme you cited, b/c of societal influences and pressures. What they see going on around them, and how they react to it. Cause and effect.

The online adult/pornography industry can and should be blamed for much of the negative contemporary factors and ills that you had mentioned above regarding young people regarding physical intimacy. It's a tragedy that the attempt to stop this from happening years ago (i.e., the CDA a.k.a. Communications Decency Act) failed. The adult industry is a despicable cancer and a loathsome blot on the soul of humanity. I work in IT, but if I had known in advance the moral decay and rot that would arise from the online adult industry, I believe it would have been better had the Internet never been invented at all. The bad on the Internet outweighs the good...but now it's simply too late, as one cannot put the genie back into the bottle, and un-invent the Internet now
Pornography has existed since people learned how to paint on cave walls. So have the sexual acts depicted in it. The only difference is that now the imagery is more accessible.

Rather than try to censor the entire world, an endeavor that is absolutely futile (never mind that it's not for you to decide what is and is not morally acceptable for grown men and women to view), it would be far more productive and responsible for parents to address pornography with their kids.

When my sister caught my then-14-year-old nephew with a few Playboys, she sat down with him and explained what airbrushing is (now it would be PhotoShop), how the photos have been touched up to remove every blemish and wrinkle, and how women's bodies don't really look like that. She told him not to expect his girlfriends to look like that, and to accept things that he finds imperfect about a girlfriend just like he would hope a girlfriend would accept things about him that she finds imperfect.

I would not blame the porn industry. I would blame parents for putting their heads in the sand and not doing right by their kids.

And I would blame the "religious right."

Last edited by Yzette; 10-31-2011 at 02:12 AM.. Reason: merging responses
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:24 AM
 
461 posts, read 372,400 times
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Quote: "So, I ask, is it nature or nurture which have us returning to this point for thousands of years?"

What point? I'm not sure what you are asking to discuss in your post.
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Old 10-31-2011, 05:47 AM
 
531 posts, read 199,276 times
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And now I am generally troubled and confused.

I was something else to, but I can't seem to remember at the moment.

Which is why I may be troubled.

And confused.
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:11 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,691 posts, read 19,145,282 times
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Porn and strip-clubs only exist because sex is so inhibited. In the old days, the adults would be showing the kids how it was done, all kinds of ways. People in societies where modesty chastens have repressed urges which may be expressed in fetishistic, unhealthy ways. I think healthy sexual liberation can have it's benefits, although there are also negatives.
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:50 AM
 
2 posts, read 887 times
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I did not want to ignite a debate on porn alone, but it exists because there is a market for it. I do believe Porn is a natural expression of sexuality. Just as noted above regards hieroglyphics throughout our ancient history and beyond. Of course it is going to advance with the times when we are not longer limited to stone or paint.
 
The porn we have today are not the Caveman drawings of millennia ago. What we have is pushing the natural boundaries of a woman’s body. Also, I do see it having adverse reactions to on those who are being raised in this environment. We are raising a new generation on porn that no other generation has had to encounter. There is a demand created for it.
 
I will tell you, through my research, it is not the sexually active males that are driving the demand for this industry to go to the extreme. It is the lack of experience and education that is pushing for more and more.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:28 AM
 
8,681 posts, read 7,661,918 times
Reputation: 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_listening View Post
I did not want to ignite a debate on porn alone, but it exists because there is a market for it. I do believe Porn is a natural expression of sexuality. Just as noted above regards hieroglyphics throughout our ancient history and beyond. Of course it is going to advance with the times when we are not longer limited to stone or paint.
 
The porn we have today are not the Caveman drawings of millennia ago. What we have is pushing the natural boundaries of a woman’s body. Also, I do see it having adverse reactions to on those who are being raised in this environment. We are raising a new generation on porn that no other generation has had to encounter. There is a demand created for it.
 
I will tell you, through my research, it is not the sexually active males that are driving the demand for this industry to go to the extreme. It is the lack of experience and education that is pushing for more and more.
The only thing pushing the "natural boundaries" of a woman's body in porn is the size of the implants. Shaving? 100 years ago no one shaved legs or underarms. There's more to the story of the kid you counseled who was in "shock" about running into pubic hair on a girl. Frankly, I have a hard time buying that story in the first place because if the kid was old enough to be putting his hands down a girl's pants, he's old enough to have pubic hair of his own. Even if there was no health education in his school, and even if all of his education about women's bodies came from porn and his parents were nowhere to be found when he turned 12, not only is there plenty of porn with unshaved or half-shaved women, but a quick Google of "naked women" will show that women naturally have pubic hair and not all of them shave bare. I think the kid you counseled had a screw loose in other ways.

As for the acts shown in porn themselves, again, those have been around since the dawn of recorded time. But if you don't want to go back that far, think about this: What, exactly, do you think went on at a Roman orgy?

Rhetorical, because this is supposed to be a PG-rated forum.

Point is, the only things that have changed are the medium and its accessibility.

Does that contribute to the saint/sinner depiction of women? Sure. But think about why porn exists on the scale it does now and why so many young people put such stock in it. You say it's because of a lack of experience and education.

And who is to blame for that? People who think sex is too dirty and evil to teach their children about, and people who want to mix their warped, fanatical religious views with government and public education: The "religious right."
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:45 AM
 
4,858 posts, read 3,198,798 times
Reputation: 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post

...

Pornography has existed since people learned how to paint on cave walls. So have the sexual acts depicted in it. The only difference is that now the imagery is more accessible.

Rather than try to censor the entire world, an endeavor that is absolutely futile (never mind that it's not for you to decide what is and is not morally acceptable for grown men and women to view), it would be far more productive and responsible for parents to address pornography with their kids.

When my sister caught my then-14-year-old nephew with a few Playboys, she sat down with him and explained what airbrushing is (now it would be PhotoShop), how the photos have been touched up to remove every blemish and wrinkle, and how women's bodies don't really look like that. She told him not to expect his girlfriends to look like that, and to accept things that he finds imperfect about a girlfriend just like he would hope a girlfriend would accept things about him that she finds imperfect.

I would not blame the porn industry. I would blame parents for putting their heads in the sand and not doing right by their kids.

And I would blame the "religious right."
Sorry, but I cannot help but disagree strongly with the above assessment. The need to protect children from strong, graphic, and obscene s*xual material that will only be harmful to them far outweighs any "right" that adults may have to see such material. Although I am certainly not the strongest fan of China, I have to give them credit where credit is due -- the Chinese have the right idea when it comes to censoring pornography, and we Americans the wrong one. It is simply selfish to the extreme for adults to claim that their supposed "right" to view X-rated material outweighs the emotional health of their children. Outrageously selfish and self-centered to the core.

Plus, under the "old rules", this material should already be blocked to minors, just as it was when minors were not allowed to purchase pornographic material at the bookstore. Except now, kids can potentially have an "all you can eat" obscenity fest online, if they can successfully circumvent parental filtering programs. What has happened to our society, to knowingly allow our children to be exposed to such filth and debauchery?? Shame on those, who willingly allow such barbarism...
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:46 PM
 
7,508 posts, read 2,115,611 times
Reputation: 3857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
Why not? Their attitude toward sex and sexuality is oppressive, repressive, unnatural, puritanical, inhibiting, punitive, and warped. By making sex a moral issue, they foster all of the things you said in your post.

...

I would not blame the porn industry. I would blame parents for putting their heads in the sand and not doing right by their kids.

And I would blame the "religious right."
I agree that parents are to blame mostly, but this would also include both extreme sides on their attitude towards sex and sexuality. I think it's funny how people are saying "sex is okay as long as both are consent adults", yet we are telling teenagers that it's okay to engage in it as long as they are "safe". I smell hypocrisy.

In this day and age, I blame our crazy sex revolution, and parents lack of involvement whether they are religious or not. The only thing I can't blame them is the choice they make.

Last edited by ho hey!; 10-31-2011 at 01:10 PM..
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