Had a not so pleasant debate with a swinger/open sex marriage person (girls, cheat)

[Karyn4321]

Originally Posted by lionking

So I know this guitar player. Had a conversation with him recently where the fact that he and his wife swing and it kind of got ugly at moments when we shot back at each other view points that don't agree.

It started and progressed because we were talking about the fact that I am single and have nobody I am seeing at the moment. I mentioned that the last couple times I have been out at the bars watching bands, one time his, the women that flirted and came on to me turned out they had husbands at home. I was just drinking at the bar next to them and talking and they got all flirty with me. I wasn't looking for anything with them.

He said , "well they know what their doing why didn't you go for it"? I said I don't respect people who have made a vow and are married who cheat or have sex even if it is open sex outside the marriage like even swingers. I knew he and his wife are, so I knew that was opening a can of worms with my comment.

And it did, because his over tone got nasty, and he said " you are in for a big surprise when you finally discover the real world out there and how the world is gonna dump on you if you don't grow up and how he hates attitudes like mine that demand everybody be the one and only to each other", "What century do you think this is?" he said.

I told him do what you want but don't tell me it is some enlightened attitude, to separate sex from marriage, to think that having their commitment in just emotion but leaving open sex as some separate thing is enlightened because that is a cop out for the fact that you can't commit or stand up to a promise all the way.

He didn't like what I said, and it may be judgmental but that is what I think. And frankly those married women that flirted with me that openly suggested leaving together I see with a bit of disgust.

I don't care what people do if single, I am no poster boy for morality myself, but if people want to mess around get single or stay single.

But all this has been messing with my mind recently, depressing me a bit. What happened to me at the bar, that guys viewpoint , and how so many people get divorced now and how they f... around. I know several people after years of marriage, it falling apart or where one of them cheats. It is more normal than not now.

It is all I see out there. And it scares the crap out of me and enforces my fear of even trying to find a long term commitment anymore. I am NOT gonna be the guy who's wife is trying to get some strange while I am at home. And I am not going to the guy who lets his woman get open sex from others in order to save their marriage. I am not going to be the guy who after 20 years of marriage has his wife leave him to reunite with a long lost from facebook.

I cannot understand how a guy would be alright with his woman doing other guys, even if it is supposedly that he has her heart and those other guys are just sport.

Yeah I am judgmental that way, I think those guys are loosers....

He said the world will take a dump on me if I don't grow up, I think it already has.......

There is absolutely nothing wrong with your viewpoints. If anything, you are actually correct, the swingers should never be admired. Those people live miserable existences and appear to be easily influenced by social trends. They lack morality.

I would never let a misguided person make me feel bad. Just ignore them. They are not worth the energy.

[lionking]

I am about done with this thread but just to answer a couple questions and respond to a couple statements made by others.

First off dewdrop is right, I could have responded without mentioning my disdain for swingers but I did knowingly because I felt it triggered me to do so, it opened up opportunity to do so. You can call that a lacking quality so be it. He is not a friend, he is a associate in band circles so I don't really care if I de-friended him.

Secondly I was in a emotional funk last week, which is why I posed this at all, I have so much to be thankful for and am greatful for my life in many regards but once in a great while I get into a emotional funk for no real reason. I am over that now and back to my more positive self. Last week I was beating up myself mentally about not being able to find a woman that has a majority of qualities I want. The married women that hit on me was a example of my frustration on this.

Recruiting was mentioned in the thread. One thing most swingers have in common is they look to recruit and that is part of the reason I and some others come down on them for their life style. That guitar player I mentioned, well a singer I know was approached by him trying to get that singer and his wife to try out swinging. The singer guy I know told me he was put off by it as well.

It was mentioned by others in the thread that they have been approached by swingers attempting to recruit them. Years ago a bass player I was in a band with him and his wife tried to recruit me. One night at their apartment without warning she started going down on him in front of me and they were hoping that would turn me on to join in with them. But it back fired on them. Then they hooked me up with a single female friend of theirs, so I wnt out on a couple of dates with her only to find out she has involved herself with them before and they were all hoping it would lead to a foursome eventually with all of us. But it back fired and I distanced myself from all of them eventually.

I am religious in a sense, not a church goer, but my disdain for swingers has nothing to do with religious teachings. As I said I am not a poster boy for morality there things you all could rant about and judge about me and I say go for it. The thing is I have heard and read responses by swingers or alternative people how they wish other people would keep their religion or attempted recruitment away from them yet swingers themselves seem out to recruit and try to influence others to their way.....so come on

And lastly, the bans on gay marriage was mentioned. I don't agree with homosexual lifestyles either but I will never support legislative bans on either swingers, or homosexuals because it is one thing to voice view points and another to try to control their lives. At the end of the day what they do in their lives doesn't effect me.

[ChessieMom]

Originally Posted by TaoistDude

You may wish it so, but I know your "guaranteed" opinion is wrong and flawed. If it makes you comfortable to hold to it rather than accept that there are people who confound your ideas, that's up to you.

It does not affect my comfort at all. No impact whatsoever. You can think what you want, but if you really think that even the majority of people that are participating in an open marriage are happily there, I have some beachfront land in Arizona to sell you.

[Chi-turtle]

Originally Posted by TaoistDude

You may wish it so, but I know your "guaranteed" opinion is wrong and flawed. If it makes you comfortable to hold to it rather than accept that there are people who confound your ideas, that's up to you.

Exactly. Some people live in such a box-world they can't even begin to fathom that other people have different ways of living their life or approaching a situation. It's truly sad.

[TaoistDude]

Originally Posted by ChessieMom

... but if you really think that even the majority of people that are participating in an open marriage are happily there, I have some beachfront land in Arizona to sell you.

ChessieMom, I don't really think that even a majority of people in ANY marriage are happily there! Obviously, the statistics on marriage and divorce back me up. So your point isn't really relevant.

However, many ARE happily there, and I know some of those people very well and have known them for years. Statistics on open marriage are very hard to find, and very poorly defined when they can be found. I think the best estimates are that around 6% of couples consider an open marriage to the extent of having talked about it and agreed in principle that it might be okay. Those same estimates indicate that less than 2% of couples actually try it. This is still a very large number of people (to put it in perspective, that's around 10 times as many couples as there are people who complete a marathon in a year). If the success/failure is as woefully bad as traditional relationships, then obviously it often isn't going to work out long-term for many of them. Does this make it bad or wrong or risky? No more so than traditional relationships, in my opinion.

I will say that traditional relationships are NOT suitable for everyone. Only an idiot would assert that the "one size fits all" concept applies. Non-traditional relationships can and do work for many people who are inclined to pursue them - likely with similar success rates as traditional relationships, lacking better information to go by.

[strawberrykiki]

Originally Posted by TaoistDude

I will say that traditional relationships are NOT suitable for everyone. Only an idiot would assert that the "one size fits all" concept applies. Non-traditional relationships can and do work for many people who are inclined to pursue them - likely with similar success rates as traditional relationships, lacking better information to go by.

I agree that traditional relationships may not be suitable for everyone. People are free to have any kind of relationship they want between consenting adults. But, I don't understand why you have to get married. What is the point of being married if you are not going going to be faithful? Be common law married, be roommates, be whatever you want to be, but don't get married.

[Aganusn]

Breaking news: people are different and not everyone believes in your objective moral reality.

[TaoistDude]

Originally Posted by strawberrykiki

I agree that traditional relationships may not be suitable for everyone. People are free to have any kind of relationship they want between consenting adults. But, I don't understand why you have to get married. What is the point of being married if you are not going going to be faithful? Be common law married, be roommates, be whatever you want to be, but don't get married.

Why not get married? Marriage is a legal, social contract and only incidentally - in the minds of many people, but not ALL - about sexual exclusivity. For most of history and - presumably - prehistory, marriage wasn't even about love, and still isn't in some cultures and countries.

Anyway, I think most of the people in open marriages and similar arrangements are faithful in the ways that truly matter, such as love and commitment to each other (never mind the tax and insurance advantages). Some people do not equate sex with love, or sex with commitment - in fact, given how many people these days date and have casual sex, there seems to be very little linkage anyway. Marriage does not have to change that, and the core idea of marriage as a partnership does not change.

[strawberrykiki]

Originally Posted by TaoistDude

Why not get married? Marriage is a legal, social contract and only incidentally - in the minds of many people, but not ALL - about sexual exclusivity. For most of history and - presumably - prehistory, marriage wasn't even about love, and still isn't in some cultures and countries.

Anyway, I think most of the people in open marriages and similar arrangements are faithful in the ways that truly matter, such as love and commitment to each other (never mind the tax and insurance advantages). Some people do not equate sex with love, or sex with commitment - in fact, given how many people these days date and have casual sex, there seems to be very little linkage anyway. Marriage does not have to change that, and the core idea of marriage as a partnership does not change.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I understand many people have sex without love. I've been one of them. But if I am with someone I love in a marriage, then I could never ever have sex with someone else even if the other person said they were fine with it. To ME, that isn't a marriage.

[TaoistDude]

Originally Posted by strawberrykiki

We will just have to agree to disagree. I understand many people have sex without love. I've been one of them. But if I am with someone I love in a marriage, then I could never ever have sex with someone else even if the other person said they were fine with it. To ME, that isn't a marriage.

I completely understand and respect your feelings on this. I'm approaching this topic primarily from an intellectual perspective, and from knowing people with successful open marriages. If I chose to be in a relationship with someone who had your views, I'd completely respect that as well and practice sexual exclusivity. However, I still wouldn't agree on an intellectual, conceptual or ethical basis that is has to be that way.