Had a not so pleasant debate with a swinger/open sex marriage person (Christian, male)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Without getting into the debate, I think I can say that while swinging/open relationships may add a small amount of risk, the rewards are usually well worth it when considered rationally. I think that most of life's pleasures and worthwhile activities add risk, whether that's eating sweets or red meat to driving to get somewhere for entertainment. These are choices that in the short or long term can lead to negative consequences.
So, on balance, we all make risky choices daily, based on what we enjoy or value. This is no different, and probably has a higher reward/risk ratio than most.
Yes, we all take risks. But the rest of the equation is in regards to necessity to achieve something specific. I can see the fun in it, sure. But this (and I'm guessing any other rewards you're meaning) can be achieved in monogamous relationships as well. There's a wide variety of ways you can add to sexual excitement and pleasure without adding more people. While I'm not calling it wrong nor suggesting that the added risk in the practice itself means you can't do things to prevent (at least as well as any monogamous couple) STDs and negative feelings, it still amounts to involving extra people who may suffer or cause a variety of problems.
I think a central aspect of the jealousy argument is whether or not you attribute jealousy to the individual experiencing it, the situation they're in, or a combination of both. I consider it an interaction of both factors, which is why I say that even a person who is not prone to jealousy is still capable of it depending on the situation. And that's not to speak of the people you "swing" with or have sexual relations with outside of the open relationship (they can experience jealousy and other unhelpful emotions, such as "catching feelings" as well).
I'd still argue that despite the small additional risks with swinging/open relationships vs. real monogamy, so many people do not actually practice monogamy because so many cheat. Those in swinging/open relationships are far, far less likely to cheat, so many actually have much lower risks than supposedly monogamous people who really aren't. Cheating causes many things to be hidden, ignored, or not dealt with honestly, and STDs are amongst them of course, as well as higher potential for mental and emotional upheaval when the cheating is discovered.
So, I think at worst it may be a wash - no net positive or negative impact in the comparison - but at best I think the swinger/open relationship community may have the postiive edge in safety, honesty, and emotional well-being.
Let the records show that I have not insulted you.
Again as I said if you have to dismiss a users entire post and make a snide comment about how they do not understand then conversation has broken down somewhere on your side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
I genuinely think you're not understanding me. You want me to take into account other factors in swinging/open relationships, when my argument is that it's the very thing that defines them (that one single factor they all have in common) as swinging/open relationships that inherently adds risk.
I understand the argument just fine thanks. I just do not agree with it or see how it maps to the real world. Not agreeing with you is not synonymous with failing to understand you.
Your entire argument appears - as I said - to be based around imaginging a situation where all factors are "equal" except the number of people involved - and then simply declaring based on not much at all that "more people" = "potentially more chance of jealousy".
The response I am giving you is that a) this does not map to reality because the scenario where all other things are equal is imaginary nonsense and b) the declaration you make based on this assumption does not hold anyway.
I'd still argue that despite the small additional risks with swinging/open relationships vs. real monogamy, so many people do not actually practice monogamy because so many cheat.
For those people who cheat (they are not true monogamous couples), they are probably worse off than those in swinging/open relationships. I'll agree with you there. I'm comparing the practice of being truly monogamous to the practice of swinging or being in an open relationship, however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoistDude
Those in swinging/open relationships are far, far less likely to cheat.
Here's the deal. Cheating is not a defining aspect of the monogamous relationship (indeed, it is branching away from the entire concept). However, having sex with more than one person is the defining aspect of the swinging/open relationship. This is what they all have in common. That's why I don't go off into speculating about cheating in a so-called "monogamous" relationship. Because cheating is a rarity, a deviation from the plan. Recall that the plan itself is what I'm calling superior.
At best, this only demonstrates how swinging/open relationships are superior to relationships in which people cheat. It says nothing to compare the practice of being truly monogamous and the practice of being in a swinging/open relationship.
At best, this only demonstrates how swinging/open relationships are superior to relationships in which people cheat. It says nothing to compare the practice of being truly monogamous and the practice of being in a swinging/open relationship.
In the strictly limited sense of risk that you're talking about, I agree. However, it's rare that all other things are equal, and people in either kind of relationship may have other risk factors and negative behaviors that greatly outweigh the [calculated?] risks in non-traditional relationships.
I can't say that either type of relationship is better - I can only say that a particular relationship type may be or seembetter for those who choose to practice it.
The issue is that the measure you used was jealousy. So while you point out that the "plan" in monogamy is not to cheat - this has nothing to do with jealousy. Even in a truely monogamous relationship with true fidelity, jealousy can still occur simply by one side thinking the other might or has cheated. No actual cheating has to occur.
In an open relationship where cheating is not a factor because it is openly allowed - this can actually preclude that kind of jealousy. So the straight one to one comparison where you think one relationship type has more potential or jealousy than the other simply does not hold true in reality.
The issue is that the measure you used was jealousy. So while you point out that the "plan" in monogamy is not to cheat - this has nothing to do with jealousy. Even in a truely monogamous relationship with true fidelity, jealousy can still occur simply by one side thinking the other might or has cheated. No actual cheating has to occur.
In an open relationship where cheating is not a factor because it is openly allowed - this can actually preclude that kind of jealousy. So the straight one to one comparison where you think one relationship type has more potential or jealousy than the other simply does not hold true in reality.
I don't agree with you here at all. Jealousy does happen in swinging/open/poly relationships. How one deals with it and grows through it one of the cool things.
The issue is that the measure you used was jealousy. So while you point out that the "plan" in monogamy is not to cheat - this has nothing to do with jealousy. Even in a truely monogamous relationship with true fidelity, jealousy can still occur simply by one side thinking the other might or has cheated. No actual cheating has to occur.
I don't believe I tied the two together, cheating and jealousy
Yes, anyone can get jealous at any time. But with partner-sharing, you've that much more opportunity - "excuses", if you will - to get jealous. And there are other unhelpful emotions. Insecurity, maybe a feeling your mate would rather BE with another for some reason, or perhaps brought on by comparing your physique to that of another man/woman who is also having sex with your bf/gf/spouse. Someone else outside of the relationship (but who is sexually active with you) may catch feelings partly as a result of your sexual activity together. Sure, one can say "Well that's their problem", but it doesn't mean it's not worth considering. As I said, it just opens the door to more possibilities for negative emotions as well as more serious problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
In an open relationship where cheating is not a factor because it is openly allowed - this can actually preclude that kind of jealousy. So the straight one to one comparison where you think one relationship type has more potential or jealousy than the other simply does not hold true in reality.
Just because you wouldn't call it "cheating" doesn't mean that exact kind of insecurity and suspicion of betrayal is any less likely. That's not to speak of other negative emotions, nor other complications such as the extra number of people you have to trust to be responsible and honest so you don't get an STD from them and/or the extra work you have to put in to make sure they're clean. All a monogamous couple has to do is not cheat on one another. A swinging/open relationship couple has to put their trust in at least one other person.
Also, another point. If one person in a monogamous relationship does get an STD and it isn't discovered in time, worst-case scenario is that one other person will be infected with it. Conversely, if one person in a swinging/open relationship gets an STD and it isn't discovered in time, we're talking one big mess!
I don't believe I tied the two together, cheating and jealousy
Yes, anyone can get jealous at any time. But with partner-sharing, you've that much more opportunity - "excuses", if you will - to get jealous. And there are other unhelpful emotions. Insecurity, maybe a feeling your mate would rather BE with another for some reason, or perhaps brought on by comparing your physique to that of another man/woman who is also having sex with your bf/gf/spouse.
This is funny. I was just discussing this with DH yesterday. This is the exact opposite of one of the main incidental benefits of swinging for us. Knowing that we are both attractive and desirable on the open market yet CHOOSE to be with each other. Despite the fact that either of us COULD find someone else/ more desirable (not sure what that means since he is the most desirable to me) whatever but that we choose to be together. He CHOOSES me again and again and again despite the repeated evidence that he really does not have to. No ball and chain here.
The jealousy issues looks different as well. It is not that it doesn't or shouldn't exist. It is that it is dealt with head on with honesty and trust. Instead of viewing jealousy as this awful thing, it is just another thing at which you can look and say hey ... woa what was that? And the following communication is just another opportunity for further closeness.
I think you, and many others I have seen on the vanilla internet over the years, have such an entrenched ownership mentality of sexuality and love that it is difficult to understand other perspectives. Insecurity is not an unhelpful emotion unless you fail to face it and grow. There are no bad emotions. Just unhelpful ways of handling them.
When you look at your partner and go yah he does not want only me sexually and realize ... well ... first DUH! Of course he sees other people as sexually interesting. And then acceptance of that reality lends a trust that grows exponentially when you realize that you can be fully yourself without the worries of freaking your partners jealousy feelings.
Quote:
Someone else outside of the relationship (but who is sexually active with you) may catch feelings partly as a result of your sexual activity together. Sure, one can say "Well that's their problem", but it doesn't mean it's not worth considering. As I said, it just opens the door to more possibilities for negative emotions as well as more serious problems.
Just because you wouldn't call it "cheating" doesn't mean that exact kind of insecurity and suspicion of betrayal is any less likely.
I wonder where you get your information about such likelihood.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
