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Old 10-03-2007, 05:30 AM
 
13,103 posts, read 11,729,542 times
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Default Society

OK, I'm going to branch out and ramble here....
Society sucks....I've learned over the years, and thru mistakes, that we are carbon copies/extensions of our parents. Now, taking that further, we raise our children the same way, our beliefs, our religions, our choice in husbands and wifes...even alcohole abuse and drug abuse is passed down...or controlling, jealous behavior. Narcissisum...we are in fact a carbon copy or extension of our role models...we adopt their train of thoughts, their moral and universal beliefs...and anyone who thinks outside the box, or colors outside the lines is weird....we think....and taking this subject a little further...we are people who need people and need to be accepted, so, we tend to be followers who needs someone to lead us? Why? That to me, is something we haven't learned yet....it is very dangerous and makes it easy for the evil ones who feed off of power and money to take us to the cleaners, physically and emotionally.

Not to mention, when is it the easiest for an evil leader to take over...

1. When a nation has become immoral and corrupt
2. when people are hungry and poor

Lets take a look at artists, for example....my son says, artists are weird....why? B/c they don't go along with society. You look at a lot of artists and read or study their works. They were brilliant, boarderline geniuses....more sensitive and perceptive then many other people. Which frightened people/society, b/c they didn't think like them. So, they must be either smitten with some kind of disease, either mentally ill, and they were banned from society. Take a look at Vincent van Gogh. (1853 - 1890) He cut off his ear and was labeled a real mental case. But, when you look further back into his life. Wow, is it any wonder, because of what soceity did to him?

At the age of 16 years old, he starts an apprenticship with an international art dealers in Paris but somewhere along those lines, looses interest in art, and decides to become a preacher. He returns to Englean in 1876 and works in southern Belgium, a coal mining district. He decides to identify with the miners, by sleeping on the floor, and giving away all his personal belongings. Society disapproves and bans him from the church.

His desire to become useful transforms him back into the artist he was...Vincent write.....
"To try to understand the real significance of what the great artists, the serious masters, tell us in their masterpieces, that leads to God; one man wrote or told it in a book; another, in a picture." Over the next few years, Vincent becomes a very established artist who also writes and scetches...and experiements with powerful colors which no one had ever done before. But his painting style was unacceptable by society....it simply wasn't what people were used to..untrendy and certainly unacceptable. But he continues and color for Vincent, becomes an emotional expression....

People seem to reject his paintings and him....he has an emotional breakdown...(I don't know how true it is, but I read somewhere, that his father wanted him so, to continue to be a preacher and banned him from his own family when Vincent was forced from the church) can you imagine, being banned from your home, b/c of career choice? Then banned from Society...that in itself is enough to force anyone's mind to shift, yanno. I can't imagine the hurt and emotional pain that man suffered.

So, without going any further, that gives you an idea of the karma society sends to another human being, and how we've become so identified by society...as good and bad people. Yet, if we have been burned, badly by others and choose to remain in seclusion...why, society gives us a name....of being a weird mentally challenged person. Because we think, outside the box. It is society's way of not only controlling but refusing to administer change. It is the same with the society of religion...cult practices...and even our beliefs...how easily we are led astry b/c we want approval for not only our actions...but also for our choices and for happiness. Yes, we do, we actually look for our families to be happy for us, and when they are not, we are not? How silly is that? We fear going against our parents beliefs...or even telling them...yanno, I've decided that I don't want to be a republican or a democrate anymore....and they take this as a total attack and disloyalty to their person? Why? It's all so silly.

Take a look at years ago, when men ruled and woman were not allowed to have opinion, let alone read the Bible? Why, b/c men said so. It was unacceptable...and low and behold, if a woman did speak up, the priests banned them or stoned them...can you imagine....? In those days, you had no choice, you had to believe what the majority believed, otherwise you were killed or banned from society. So, that is why I doubt religion...not faith, but religions.

Where am I going with this...I dunno...just some deep rooted thoughts....
I simply have learned, through life experiences, it's not about material wealth, or about the clothes on your back, or the shoes on your feet, what it's about, is breaking away from the gossip and cruelty of society...and educating our children to be independent in thought...yet, open minded to allowance...and the abilty to problem solve for ourselves, instead of expecting others to do our thinking for us. It is about upholding laws and realizing corruptness and to saying, "your wrong" to anyone who believes they are above the law. It's about having the confidence to say, your wrong...and I don't need to be married or in a relationship hanging diapers on the wash line to be sucessful. We need to build a compassionate and understanding world...but not a liberal one...not everyone is the same...and never will be....and it is important for one to work for what they own...to strive for their own personal wealth....meaning inner beauty....to seek out and play out their emotions...even if it doesn't meet with society's ideas...as long as we're not hurting anyone...why is my privat life so important to you? So that you can disaprove and say, while pointing fingers....no? That is silly...

anyone wish to build a discussion on this and take it further? Am I imspiring anyone to add to this?

Thanks, sorry If I'm boaring anyone....

Hugs
Creme
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:18 AM
 
Location: on an island
13,321 posts, read 29,621,338 times
Reputation: 12632
I agree that certain patterns can repeat themselves.
Values, customs, and world views can be handed down.

However, I disagree that we are always *carbon copies* of our parents, nor are our kids the same as us. Children often have more in common with each other (and/or their generation) than with their parents.
My mom and dad rejected many of their parents' WASPy values. IMHO, their rejection was for the better, and no permanent damage was done to their familial relationships.

Moral boundaries ebb and flow over the centuries. These days, American society is so connected by technology, yet so polarized in culture and beliefs.

Mahatma Ghandi said to "be the change you want to see in the world."
Even though this does not always work, I still think it is good advice.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:54 AM
 
13,103 posts, read 11,729,542 times
Reputation: 7509
Quote:
Originally Posted by cil View Post
I agree that certain patterns can repeat themselves.
Values, customs, and world views can be handed down.

However, I disagree that we are always *carbon copies* of our parents, nor are our kids the same as us. Children often have more in common with each other (and/or their generation) than with their parents.
My mom and dad rejected many of their parents' WASPy values. IMHO, their rejection was for the better, and no permanent damage was done to their familial relationships.

Moral boundaries ebb and flow over the centuries. These days, American society is so connected by technology, yet so polarized in culture and beliefs.

Mahatma Ghandi said to "be the change you want to see in the world."
Even though this does not always work, I still think it is good advice.

Cil
Hey, very insightful response, thank you....and yes, we do reject our parents wasyp values, if we are aware that they exist...and rejecting them, do bring about a better world...

but what of those who don't? do you see it straining the world...holding back, technology...

Oh Mahatma Ghandi was very wise...and yes, it is good advice...live by example....indeed.

But, in the same, I believe society and culture stagnates growth, and in many ways, we've so grown, yet, I feel we should be so much more further along...much more perceptive and in tune with others, finally realizing, how we can stunt the growth of others by our words....our actions....we have yet to realize, how so many people are effected by our thoughts, and deeds. It is not just about us...and we have to learn to encourage, explorations in life...to go beyond what we know as our comfort zone....beyond our fears of boundaries and change...which are the chains that stagnate...besides looking for acceptance, approval...which is conditioned into us, from little on up...first by our parents, then by society...we have to change educational patterns, so that children can learn to branch out and think for themselves, to problem solve....our schools educational systems need to regroup and understand the learning abiltity of children is much more vast then we ever before imagined. We have to somehow break away from society's clutches...and teach our children to be leaders of themselves...to think for themselves...and to stop that ridiculous stigma that marriage is a must...foregoing further education and learning the ability to be more aware, more in touch with others, realizing the effects we have on everyone...is in the spiritual care of each other...yet, to be able to allow progress/change...trial and error...people are so afraid of failure, yet it is from failures that some of the greatest lessons to learn come from. It is from those failures that we really learn to cherish the joyful moments...those moments of peace and happiness....that is within the self...inside, and perhaps that yearning lonely feeling....everyone has if they are alone...yet, so necessary to experience and not fear...but more so, to self evaluate and go foreward....does that make sense? A commune with nature, finding the Godly within....is that all fired passion to seek love in another human being...feeling whole upon marriage and intimacy...but that all can also be such a mind experience, with the self...which I believe is spiritual and of God, on a great level...a good one, yanno?

I believe we need to condition our little minds to grow into bigger more allowing thoughts...instead of fighting one against the other....yanno?

Thanks so much for joining in Cil....

Last edited by cremebrulee; 10-03-2007 at 07:04 AM..
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Old 10-03-2007, 07:30 AM
 
Location: New England
786 posts, read 75,226 times
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Golly... now I know cremebrulee's real-life identiy is Jerry Maguire, who was sacked after sending our his Mission Statement. Some called it a manifesto. But that is what I was reminded of.

First random thought. EVERYONE IS WEIRD. The only people who are not weird are those you don't know very well yet. Once you get to really know someone, you will find they are weird.

Second. That means that someone who NO ONE thinks is weird enjoys a unique type of lonliness, as no one has been allowed to see that person for who they really are. Except maybe a spouse or a parent. And then only maybe. But behind every such person lies secrets of the magnitude of the Dick Morris sex scandal. Such people who everyone thinks has their act totally together may very well cross-dress and then call a hooker up to his hotel room to spank him while traveling on business.

Third, we all have a tendency to take ourselves -WAY- too seriously. And we tend to be -WAY- too sensitive. Really. Not one of us is all that darned important. The fact that we get so hung up about what other people think of us is rooted EGO. And ego and self-esteem are mutually exclusive. One who can really know who he/she is and who can accept his/her self with all their faults will have some degree of humility and will be much less concerned what others think of them. They will come to realize that others may very well think they are weird. And they will accept the fact that they are, indeed, weird, so they won't harbor ill-feelings towards others who find them weird. They will also recognize that, since everyone is weird, they are really no different from anyone else. Just another bozo on the bus. And so goes the cycle of humility.

Fourth, it is truly disturbing to think of my kids being a carbon copy of me. I really hope they can grow to be a better person than I am.

Fifth, I am definitely not the same person as my dad. I have some of his characteristics, but in many respects, he is a much stronger and a much better man than I am. But I might be as wacko as my mother. That I am so different from my dad gives me hope that my kids may grow to be way different from me. On the other hand, the fact that my mother is nuts and that my wife is also nuts... well, let's think about that whole Oedipus thing for a bit...
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Old 10-03-2007, 07:53 AM
 
13,103 posts, read 11,729,542 times
Reputation: 7509
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuke View Post
Golly... now I know cremebrulee's real-life identiy is Jerry Maguire, who was sacked after sending our his Mission Statement. Some called it a manifesto. But that is what I was reminded of.

First random thought. EVERYONE IS WEIRD. The only people who are not weird are those you don't know very well yet. Once you get to really know someone, you will find they are weird.

Second. That means that someone who NO ONE thinks is weird enjoys a unique type of lonliness, as no one has been allowed to see that person for who they really are. Except maybe a spouse or a parent. And then only maybe. But behind every such person lies secrets of the magnitude of the Dick Morris sex scandal. Such people who everyone thinks has their act totally together may very well cross-dress and then call a hooker up to his hotel room to spank him while traveling on business.

Third, we all have a tendency to take ourselves -WAY- too seriously. And we tend to be -WAY- too sensitive. Really. Not one of us is all that darned important. The fact that we get so hung up about what other people think of us is rooted EGO. And ego and self-esteem are mutually exclusive. One who can really know who he/she is and who can accept his/her self with all their faults will have some degree of humility and will be much less concerned what others think of them. They will come to realize that others may very well think they are weird. And they will accept the fact that they are, indeed, weird, so they won't harbor ill-feelings towards others who find them weird. They will also recognize that, since everyone is weird, they are really no different from anyone else. Just another bozo on the bus. And so goes the cycle of humility.

Fourth, it is truly disturbing to think of my kids being a carbon copy of me. I really hope they can grow to be a better person than I am.

Fifth, I am definitely not the same person as my dad. I have some of his characteristics, but in many respects, he is a much stronger and a much better man than I am. But I might be as wacko as my mother. That I am so different from my dad gives me hope that my kids may grow to be way different from me. On the other hand, the fact that my mother is nuts and that my wife is also nuts... well, let's think about that whole Oedipus thing for a bit...
LOL, yanno, I so enjoy reading you....you should write a book or something, your so inventive and can look much deeper then that of the author of the book...I like that...but you never cease to amaze me with your perception and insight...I enjoy the challenges you present to think about...

Well done!!!! and thank you for your always brutally honest, but commical attempts to learn me something....

Oh darn, wanted to give you reps, but it wouldn't let me, wanted to say, thank you buddy!

Hugs
Creme
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Old 10-03-2007, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Virginia
6,530 posts, read 8,987,315 times
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We all gravitate toward being "accepted" by someone. It's a sociological need and an emotional requirement to seek acceptance on some level.

I always marvelled when I was in college at the students that called themselves "Non-conformist" and watched as they hung out with all the other "Non-conformists" and dressed the same with in either black, tie-dyed or old faded military jackets and held the same basic "F You" attitude to everyone that wasn't in their own clique and all along, somehow, not realizing that they were just conforming to a different set of values....

It's a VERY rare individual that truly is "non-conformist" and it is RARELY by choice. If you notice, these people become that way because they are rejected when they attempt to conform for whatever reason. Your story on Van Gogh illustrates that. Would he have been all that he was as an artist had his family and church been welcoming??? Probably not.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:32 AM
 
13,103 posts, read 11,729,542 times
Reputation: 7509
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAFury View Post
We all gravitate toward being "accepted" by someone. It's a sociological need and an emotional requirement to seek acceptance on some level.

I always marvelled when I was in college at the students that called themselves "Non-conformist" and watched as they hung out with all the other "Non-conformists" and dressed the same with in either black, tie-dyed or old faded military jackets and held the same basic "F You" attitude to everyone that wasn't in their own clique and all along, somehow, not realizing that they were just conforming to a different set of values....

It's a VERY rare individual that truly is "non-conformist" and it is RARELY by choice. If you notice, these people become that way because they are rejected when they attempt to conform for whatever reason. Your story on Van Gogh illustrates that. Would he have been all that he was as an artist had his family and church been welcoming??? Probably not.
ahhh hah...I see, your point, therefore, it was probably destiny? Yes?

But what drove him over the edge...? The complete ban from society?

and yet, isn't it true, when you get older, you really don't care. I mean, I see my old mother detach...if she doesn't like what your saying, she falls asleep? hehehe, rather funny, but illustrates the power of the mind, doesn't it? To detach, to not listen....but as you say, when your younger you so want to be liked....we all did? and still do...but if we're not, I think when we're older, we could really care less...why?

And what about the other side of the coin, where I pointed out, that we do look to society for acceptance and or approval? Why? Whey don't we teach our children to be more independent in their way of thinking to allow them mistakes..why do we fear them making mistakes, that is the only way they're going to learn and was something I had to explain over and over to my son's father. He really feared my son, making mistakes? He used to call me and wanted so to be my son's friend, and when I said, but you have to allow him more...he didn't understand. Even when I said, stop trying to save him from his own mistakes...and stop treating mistakes as a horrible failure...b/c then when he does make them, he's going to feel like he's been unworthy...he cannot be perfect...you weren't. None of us are.

Thanks VA Fury....

creme
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