when "nice guys" are not really nice guys (friendships, respect)
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I've heard so called nice guys complaining about "finishing last" all the time, but I am wondering if they actual realize that they are not very nice.
For example, I found so called nice guys always have this "victim" mentality which I found to be very annoying.
They claim:
I don't drink - but they have no problems complaining their girlfriend have a drinking problem. (turned out the girl only drinks socially)
I respect my parents - turn out they are still living with their parents and when girl asked the legitimate question, "when will you be independent" The dude immediately got defensive and accused of the girl of being "disrespectful"
I don't go out - turn out they are suffering from social phobia, have absolutely no abilities to social with anybody
Here is the ultimate,
ALl women want jerks, are shallow, are materialistic, like to be abused. It is all women's fault, not mine.
So when people tell me they are nice guy who finishes last, this is a red flag to me. What are your thoughts?
Nice people who finish last were in the wrong race to begin with. They started with either inappropriate expectations or low expectations. Instead of learning from these mistakes, they blame it on others. In other words, they learn no conflict resolution skills.
Another way to think about this topic is that if a person's game is being "nice", what is going to keep their date from going with another "nice" person?
No and no! Both men and women can do what they please: party around until their 60's, get married right out of high school, or anything in between. My gripe is with women who reject perfectly decent men and not tell them why ("you're too nice" doesn't count), only to turn around and try to settle down with them a decade or two later. Oh, and don't forget: 80% of men don't have the luxury of dating around much.
You're conflating two vastly different movments. RP is about learning how women's sexual attraction works, and leveraging it in your favor. Incel is just angry kvetching. In fact, most Red Pillers look down on incels, even though the information they teach overlaps.
I am fine with being single, especially considering how I lost all interest in sex sometime last year. I now see it as pleasant as revising Excel spreadsheets or cleaning my bathroom. That is, something I'd do if required, but otherwise, it's just another chore I'd much rather not do. Although... there was one incident that really got under my skin, and made me ashamed of being single for a week or two after.
I was organizing a birthday celebration at Dave & Buster's. I wanted to do it at night. But my friends want to be home by 9:00 PM, even on Saturday; I guess it's "grown up" to be home early. OK fine, I accommodated them by doing it at 4:30 PM, and they accepted. They came an hour late! I left in frustration after 45 minutes, so by the time they got there, I was already gone.
When I called them out on being disrespectful, they didn't apologize. Instead, they said: "You don't understand what it's like to be in a serious relationship." (or something like that) I'm 100% certain that if I had a girlfriend, they would have come on time. Preferably a real one, but a very convincing fake one would do in a pinch, to avoid that despised "single" status in my friends' eyes.
In their defense, they offered to reschedule; I agree to a dinner in a restaurant in walking distance to my apartment. They also asked if they could bring another couple, who I sort of knew; I said OK. That couple brought a 10-month-old baby, who SHRIEKED through much of the meal. I'm pretty sure that couple had no respect for me, either. Because I'm single, and with no kids to boot.
The bolded part: That should actually be taken as a compliment oddly enough. I know from a guy's perspective it's not. He's like, "When you were 18 and hot you didn't want me, but now that you're older and less hot and have baggage you want some of this? Eff you!" But that's where you and other guys fail. You see only from the perspective of your desires and not from the perspective of a woman at all. The thing you'd see if you stepped around to her perspective for one second, is that young people (men and women both) are dumb and make dumb choices sometimes, due to lack of experience and therefore wisdom. So a woman might make a questionable choice of a guy who doesn't have a lot of true good qualities going for him, but is exciting in some way, when she is young and unwise...then grow and learn through EXPERIENCE which is a very human thing to do, and then later be prepared to make a WISER choice. Or, like me, she might simply capitulate to the man who pursued in a bold and persuasive manner...and then come to regret it when he's a jerk in the relationship itself. And learn, and grow, and do better later in life.
And that 80/20% thing is BS. Always has been, always will be. Are 80% of the guys you know sitting around single and dateless and having no chances with women? Are they? Are 80% of the women you know following some few studly guys in tight white t-shirts around swooning, like a herd of does after a buck? I mean do you go out and see these entourages wandering about? I don't.
And hey, don't talk smack about Excel spreadsheets. They are one of my favorite things, and I am offended!
One thing I kinda sympathize with you over though is the kids thing. There are people I like but I don't hang out with because they are in "raising small children" phase in life, and I am really not a fan of kids, especially other people's kids. I don't invite them over, any more than I invite over someone who would simply HAVE to bring their yappy little dog (not a dog person either) who pees everywhere and chews on everything. I don't want small, destructive, annoying entities running riot in my household. So I found groups of people with plenty of adults who are either childfree, have grown kids, or have kids old enough to be left alone or with a sitter, and if I do a dinner or game night at my place, I'd only invite them. When my sons were little, I didn't go out or do social things very much for a time. Also, I was broke. Kids are expensive. No one should judge anyone for having them or not, and I don't, but it does create something of a social divide...at least for some span of years.
Anyhow, who cares what people judge, do you judge yourself? If not, why worry about it? If these friends don't work for you, or they seem inconsiderate, then find new ones. Either your friends are bad friends or they don't really like you much anymore for some reason, and either way it serves you not, to pour energy into nurturing connections that aren't working well and to keep being upset about it. Find new people! They're everywhere!
I will say as far as the nice guy thing..Some of this lash out is the fact that guys who struggle don’t really have the same support system as women..Men aren’t supposed to show emotions or weakness a lot were told even if you get rejected everytime you must have blind confidence and you can never show vulnerability or doubt yourself because women want strong men..we’re not robots we have emotions and fears and weaknesses like women so when you have all that pent up inside you it can sometimes lash out..
But obviously some of these guys who lash out or join these groups are just scary individuals who have a ton of anger and hate in them and quite frankly seem dangerous.. im not excusing these mental cases..
Also, some young people are.afraid of what could be a solid relationship. They know they're not ready for that yet. Guys do this too. They may avoid the more serious, potentially much stronger association because they know they're really still just kids. It's timing, not "settling later."
And yes, that's a compliment. It means you have ALL the things the woman desires - physically, emotionally.
But no, because she wouldn't just let you deck her and wander off 15 years ago, it's payback time, right?
Ridiculous. But go for it. Tell that woman off! All you're doing is making her think, "Wow, so I was right all those years ago not to start something with him, because at the time I thought he was great, obviously he's a jerk and just kind of a paranoid wreck. I really dodged a bullet." Then off she goes to find somebody better.
I will say as far as the nice guy thing..Some of this lash out is the fact that guys who struggle don’t really have the same support system as women..Men aren’t supposed to show emotions or weakness a lot were told even if you get rejected everytime you must have blind confidence and you can never show vulnerability or doubt yourself because women want strong men..we’re not robots we have emotions and fears and weaknesses like women so when you have all that pent up inside you it can sometimes lash out..
But obviously some of these guys who lash out or join these groups are just scary individuals who have a ton of anger and hate in them and quite frankly seem dangerous.. im not excusing these mental cases..
That's why I got a therapist.
Whenever I wanted to go on a rant about my past struggles with women, they were there and never judged me.
I felt so much better after this. Still took me 28 years to find a good woman who wasn't mean.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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I'm certainly not attracted to the same people in my mid 40s as I was in my mid 20s. My tastes are vastly improved. Being chosen as an adult over a kid is indeed a compliment.
I will say as far as the nice guy thing..Some of this lash out is the fact that guys who struggle don’t really have the same support system as women..Men aren’t supposed to show emotions or weakness a lot were told even if you get rejected everytime you must have blind confidence and you can never show vulnerability or doubt yourself because women want strong men..we’re not robots we have emotions and fears and weaknesses like women so when you have all that pent up inside you it can sometimes lash out..
But obviously some of these guys who lash out or join these groups are just scary individuals who have a ton of anger and hate in them and quite frankly seem dangerous.. im not excusing these mental cases..
What an insightful and well-explained and well-written post, JBT1980. Thank you for that.
I second what JBT1980 said in bold. I must feel lonely for men who think they cannot "talk it out" with other men or women. I so wish that men were not taught and did not receive the message to just suck it up. It's not fair or right, and it minimizes and dismisses how they feel.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,925,282 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by self-made
What an insightful and well-explained and well-written post, JBT1980. Thank you for that.
I second what JBT1980 said in bold. I must feel lonely for men who think they cannot "talk it out" with other men or women. I so wish that men were not taught and did not receive the message to just suck it up. It's not fair or right, and it minimizes and dismisses how they feel.
This is part of toxic masculinity and can be overcome if one has both the self awareness to do so, and the strength and will to get the help one needs to be able overcome it. It is trained into us, but we do not have to accept it.
Well there is another piece, too, in the problem of men not having much in the way of supportive relationships.
We raise boys not only to hide any and all vulnerability, even in the family dynamic where Dad tells son not to ever let him see him cry, but Mom holds him and gives love when he does... The message is, "You must find one woman to bear all of your needs for emotional labor. Only if you find a woman to be in a relationship with you, can you ever show your emotions and vulnerability, and expect to receive any kind of support."
Not only does this lead to a man who is single feeling very isolated, but it's all too likely that if he makes friends with a woman and she cares and listens, as women are socialized to do, he will believe he should attempt a romantic relationship with her. Any woman who gives support or emotional labor is assumed to be someone he should attempt to partner bond with. I think this is perhaps a contributor to the dreaded "friend zone" phenomenon, a struggle within the man to function in a different set of social parameters with a woman, because he was trained by parents in what the roles SHOULD be.
I imagine it's got to feel pretty confusing, when you have this subroutine running in your programming, and a woman offers support and caring in what she believes is a friendship framework, and this looks like an offer of a relationship to the guy but then that isn't what she wants. But one thing most women are aware of, is that if we attempt a relationship with a friend, and it doesn't work out (and a person can be a great friend but not a great partner) then the friendship is then usually over. We value our friendships, at least somewhat often, enough to not want to cross those lines.
A lot of women also place even higher value on a friend, than a lover. So when the guy gets so hurt and upset that he was good enough to be a friend but not good enough to be a love interest...that feels confusing to us. The message that we women might then get is "You never really liked me as a person, it was all an act so you could try and get sex." Friendship validates us. Usually more than sexual desire does. For men I think it's maybe the opposite. ??
Well there is another piece, too, in the problem of men not having much in the way of supportive relationships.
We raise boys not only to hide any and all vulnerability, even in the family dynamic where Dad tells son not to ever let him see him cry, but Mom holds him and gives love when he does... The message is, "You must find one woman to bear all of your needs for emotional labor. Only if you find a woman to be in a relationship with you, can you ever show your emotions and vulnerability, and expect to receive any kind of support."
Not only does this lead to a man who is single feeling very isolated, but it's all too likely that if he makes friends with a woman and she cares and listens, as women are socialized to do, he will believe he should attempt a romantic relationship with her. Any woman who gives support or emotional labor is assumed to be someone he should attempt to partner bond with. I think this is perhaps a contributor to the dreaded "friend zone" phenomenon, a struggle within the man to function in a different set of social parameters with a woman, because he was trained by parents in what the roles SHOULD be.
I imagine it's got to feel pretty confusing, when you have this subroutine running in your programming, and a woman offers support and caring in what she believes is a friendship framework, and this looks like an offer of a relationship to the guy but then that isn't what she wants. But one thing most women are aware of, is that if we attempt a relationship with a friend, and it doesn't work out (and a person can be a great friend but not a great partner) then the friendship is then usually over. We value our friendships, at least somewhat often, enough to not want to cross those lines.
A lot of women also place even higher value on a friend, than a lover. So when the guy gets so hurt and upset that he was good enough to be a friend but not good enough to be a love interest...that feels confusing to us. The message that we women might then get is "You never really liked me as a person, it was all an act so you could try and get sex." Friendship validates us. Usually more than sexual desire does. For men I think it's maybe the opposite. ??
Interesting points.. I also think it could be over analyzing it a little..There’s a women we bond with are attracted to have a great time with is it that crazy to at least have some desire to want a relationship with that person? Mental emotional and physical attraction isn’t a bad baseline for men to want to start..
I don’t see how wanting a relationship would be looked at as not appreciating the women or how we never liked you as a person it seems the opposite to me....Were saying we want you in our life even more then just seeing you every once in awhile as a friend..were saying we want to have a future together with you I don’t see how that’s less valued then a friend..Your statement there about not valuing you as a person because we want a relationship with you makes literally no sense to me at all.
I don’t get the valuing a friendship more then a lover/boyfriend/husband thing..A husband is somebody you’re building your life with and want to be around all the time as opposed to a friend who you are with way less and can be fleeting..that makes no sense to me...Most people value their spouse more then their friends hence “love of my life” and if they value their friends more they’res probably huge issues in the relationship then.
Last edited by JBT1980; 11-15-2018 at 12:27 PM..
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