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Well, that's on them if their stereotypical viewpoint is that jaded. I can't think of a time in my life that I ever faulted anyone for being nice.
Me neither. However, in my experience, men who insist they are "nice guys" generally aren't. And I am not obligated to date anyone I don't want to date merely because they are "nice".
But at any rate, this thread was started in 2013. The conversation has wandered a bit since then.
I grew up with this type of hyper masculinity just flooded around me and it is mainly why I’m such an angry jacka$& right now and I have trouble with even desiring people to get close to me. Way I see it, the hard man stance was something I had no choice but to adapt to to get out of my rough and tumble hometown alive. Now being out of that environment, I struggle with who the hell im protecting myself from with this attitude? I think the combo of the first LDR rejection and a bad breakup with my first girlfriend just intensified this defensive attitude and I don’t know if I can ever open up and loosen my anger and defensiveness.
Nah. I get you, Diss. I actually watched the documentary with my husband a few days ago and it was an interesting watch. Nothing we were surprised by, but it addressed all of the things we know to be true, as observed by the studies and data.
I have male cousins with similar experiences. It's a challenge to undo that programming.
My situation was almost the opposite. I was raised in a "Victorian" manner: lay low, be seen and not heard, follow rules without question, and bring home straight A's. Any kind of leadership/assertiveness was a big no-no. Which served my family very well while I lived with them.
However, it hurt me big time come puberty. It's a widely known fact even in the Blue Pill world, that girls/women are attracted to strong personalities.
We are groomed and expected to desire big strong personalities. We see this play out in all manners of society. Conversely, we receive messages throughout our lives that "men" prefer meek and submissive and/or bubbly and outgoing.
One of my middle school crushes was your quintessential jock. I struck up the nerve to ask him out via a note, 'cause that's how we did it then. Shocker, I know. The girls loved him. I wasn't the only one of my friends that liked him. He was a friend of my cousin, also a jock. I also had a longtime crush on one of my cousin's closet friends, who did not have that charismatic or strong personality. He was quiet, shy and not a "ladies' man" like my cousin. I had a crush on him for a number of years. We were both too shy to say anything. We smiled and glanced at each other. Typical.
I met my high school boyfriend in an AOL chat room. Yay me. A fellow comics geek, music nerd, and movie buff. He did not have a big strong personality. He was reserved and ambiverted.
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But because all strong character traits were parented out of me, I had nothing I could leverage to attract girls.
And those traits are...? Why do you think strong character traits (as opposed to, what, "soft,"?) appeal to all girls? I can tell you now, the majority of my crushes during my teen years were not boys or young men who possessed outwardly strong personalities. Heck, even a lot of the Sailors and Marines I went out with, post-high school, were not your typical poster child superhero-looking jarhead. Because that's the image conjured up, right? Strong tough guy, likely a grunt, possibly a former jock?
Like my father. Popular jock turned Marine, though not a grunt. He wasn't really a "nice guy" in the dating sense. At 17, toward the end of high school, I very briefly dated a very handsome Marine who was the "Chad" archetype. He was the first and last "big strong personality," aka bad boy "Chad," I dated.
Quick question, just so I understand this archetype correctly, does a "Chad" have to be conventionally good-looking and possess certain traits? Like he needs to be handsome, assertive (or aggressive), charismatic, smooth-talking, dominant...bad boy? What if he's good-looking, but none of the above? Is he still a "Chad"?
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Throughout high school, I fell back on the dreaded "nice guy" tactics , and learned the hard way how ineffective they were. I somehow managed to find a girlfriend first year of college (even if only for a few months), as well as not graduate a virgin thanks to a party hookup at another college. But my dating experiences were few and far between even well into my 20's.
But see, this was your experience, influenced by your upbringing, among other things. And if they were "tactics," then you weren't actually being nice for the sake of being nice. Mr. Meta did not have your experience, though he was the quiet, introverted, nerdy/geeky GATE kid. He never wanted to be like the popular guys, nor did he try Nice Guy™ tactics to attract girls. He was shy and nervous about the whole dating thing, but not in the "I'm a beta male and all the girls hate me!!!!"
His first girlfriend was at 21. Next at 28, then 32 and finally, I met him when he was 35. He's gone on many dates in that time, but there was a definite stretch of time between his first and second relationship. One could say it's because "women are too picky," but he became more selective as he gained more experience and went through periods of introspection. His preferences greatly narrowed his dating pool, which was fine because he was looking for a compatible match, not just any attractive-enough woman to date to avoid being single and share space with and have "relations" with when he felt like it. His motivations were not to acquire a girlfriend and he didn't employ "tactics" to improve his chances. He was never a Nice Guy™. He's embraced his personality and the traits and characteristics that influence his identity.
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I got better at attracting women by age 28 or so. But that's when many of them started wanting to play house, and I didn't (and still don't), which led to mismatched goals and ghosting quite a few times. Today, I refuse to admit any woman into my life romantically, only as a platonic friend. I have no motive whatsoever. Plus, I saw enough marriages that reminded me of my life growing up. I'm not willing to give up my independence that took me 19 years to attain (that's how old I was when I moved into an apartment I shared with two roommates), and I lost all interest in sex last year.
And that's fine...for you. You do you. But "women" are not a monolith. We don't all want the same thing. "Playing house" in the way you often describe has never been my thing. How you describe "married life" is nothing like my marriage. Your upbringing sounds dreadful. That wasn't my husband's experience. The same applies to many other men. Same for dating experiences, even for average men who do not possess big strong personalities.
Do I recall correctly that both of you are African American men?
I've said before (and I stand by it) that Dissenter's geographical location is a factor. The whole DC area has, in my opinion, often a hostile vibe. It is one of the places I've lived (the first, I was there up to age 17 in northern VA) and the Rust Belt (Cincinnati) wasn't much better. It wasn't until Iowa and points further west that I started really seeing people being a lot friendlier. In time, that rubbed off on me, and it's made me a much happier and more optimistic and less defensive person.
But I also think (and please do correct me if I'm way off base here) that being an African American man can lead to some cultural training. I had a friend for a time, who said that he felt so much pressure to appear "thug like" (his words) that this was what women around him seemed into, growing up. But at the same time, he felt that when he tried to interact with the kinds of women he wanted to pursue, he had this intense paranoia that he came off as threatening or scary to them. Sometimes just to random women in general. It really had him pretty twisted up inside. We talked about it for a long time.
And in fact, I'm also reminded in a very tertiary and not EXACTLY related manner, of this one friend I have. He has grown up being a big, scary looking dude. Nothing he was ever going to do about that. But he goes way, way out into "nice-guy" territory in his interactions with women to demonstrate that he is not threatening and that he can be trusted to be kind. And then interestingly, I have seen him interact with his wife, and he's a little the opposite with her. Not a jerk, or truly mean-spirited, but they playfully insult each other using pretty strong language. (She is a beautiful German lady. He calls her a filthy heifer. But then she plays along and calls him something. So it's just a thing they do.) Anyhow I wonder if part of why that works so well for him, is that he does not have to keep up the "don't be scared of me" routine around her.
I find it interesting how people's perceptions of you can really affect things you grow up believing and doing.
Kind of a universal thing for men...
I've gone through phases...
Pretty much western men as a whole are conditioned to be "strong" which is mistaken for emotionless. Many of us are raised to stuff our emotions, which ultimately turns out to be unhealthy. The interesting thing with me is that I did a little bit of history research and observed certain pieces of literature from earlier eras and I realized that there is a possibility that the "men are emotionless" conditioning is relatively recent. A similar thing happened with fashion, but that is a completely different topic.
I feel like I have overcome that conditioning in my late twenties, but a series of sick events have broken me and I feel as if I can't help but hold my emotions for reasons I can't explain. (It feels like a poison dart is in me or something).
The good news with me is that I can easily influence other people's perceptions of me. All I have to do is change the type of clothes I wear. It's amazing the effect wardrobe would have, especially when you know how to dress.
There have been times in high school that people told me that I looked like I was going to kill someone. By the time I was in high school, I wasn't particularly big and tall compared to other high schoolers. (I stopped growing in 8th grade, but given that I am taller than average in statistics, I chalk it up to reaching my full height early)
As of right now, I am not sure of people's perceptions, but I am thinking that for the past few years of what I went through, people thought I was just too nice/wimpy and they could just do anything to me.
Now, I am just a little cautious with people...everyone I meet.
I do have a friend that kinda understands me (as much as she can). We seem to be getting closer. I could definitely be more than friends with her, but at the same time, I love our friendship enough that if it doesn't happen, I'll still be happy with it. To be honest, I am not interested in romance or (feel free to attack me for this) sex with anyone. Close friendships are enough for me. And we get playful with each other. We tease each other playfully.
We talk about the possibility of being more than friends (she often brings it up), and she often talks about how she doesn't want to ruin our friendship. And I say let's not take that route. I'm okay to leave good enough alone. Neither of us could handle a relationship right now because of the things she has been through, and then the things I have been through (before we met). Me and her both have traumas that we have to work through before moving forward with that.
Pretty much western men as a whole are conditioned to be "strong" which is mistaken for emotionless. Many of us are raised to stuff our emotions, which ultimately turns out to be unhealthy. The interesting thing with me is that I did a little bit of history research and observed certain pieces of literature from earlier eras and I realized that there is a possibility that the "men are emotionless" conditioning is relatively recent. A similar thing happened with fashion, but that is a completely different topic.
I feel like I have overcome that conditioning in my late twenties, but a series of sick events have broken me and I feel as if I can't help but hold my emotions for reasons I can't explain. (It feels like a poison dart is in me or something).
The good news with me is that I can easily influence other people's perceptions of me. All I have to do is change the type of clothes I wear. It's amazing the effect wardrobe would have, especially when you know how to dress.
There have been times in high school that people told me that I looked like I was going to kill someone. By the time I was in high school, I wasn't particularly big and tall compared to other high schoolers. (I stopped growing in 8th grade, but given that I am taller than average in statistics, I chalk it up to reaching my full height early)
As of right now, I am not sure of people's perceptions, but I am thinking that for the past few years of what I went through, people thought I was just too nice/wimpy and they could just do anything to me.
Now, I am just a little cautious with people...everyone I meet.
I do have a friend that kinda understands me (as much as she can). We seem to be getting closer. I could definitely be more than friends with her, but at the same time, I love our friendship enough that if it doesn't happen, I'll still be happy with it. To be honest, I am not interested in romance or (feel free to attack me for this) sex with anyone. Close friendships are enough for me. And we get playful with each other. We tease each other playfully.
We talk about the possibility of being more than friends (she often brings it up), and she often talks about how she doesn't want to ruin our friendship. And I say let's not take that route. I'm okay to leave good enough alone. Neither of us could handle a relationship right now because of the things she has been through, and then the things I have been through (before we met). Me and her both have traumas that we have to work through before moving forward with that.
Wow man, that is powerful stuff. Thank you for sharing. No, not a chance in hell I would attack you for not wanting or chasing sex. I only get on Millennial Urbanist's case because he generalizes too damn much. Never because he has chosen not to pursue sex or relationships. It's not the choices he makes, it's the reasons he cites for making them that drive me bonkers. I will always encourage anyone to make the choices that are right for them. And it sounds like you are doing some pretty serious self work right now. Good for you, and I hope you journey to a happier place and get rid of the poison dart.
Pretty much western men as a whole are conditioned to be "strong" which is mistaken for emotionless. Many of us are raised to stuff our emotions, which ultimately turns out to be unhealthy. The interesting thing with me is that I did a little bit of history research and observed certain pieces of literature from earlier eras and I realized that there is a possibility that the "men are emotionless" conditioning is relatively recent. A similar thing happened with fashion, but that is a completely different topic.
I feel like I have overcome that conditioning in my late twenties, but a series of sick events have broken me and I feel as if I can't help but hold my emotions for reasons I can't explain. (It feels like a poison dart is in me or something).
The good news with me is that I can easily influence other people's perceptions of me. All I have to do is change the type of clothes I wear. It's amazing the effect wardrobe would have, especially when you know how to dress.
There have been times in high school that people told me that I looked like I was going to kill someone. By the time I was in high school, I wasn't particularly big and tall compared to other high schoolers. (I stopped growing in 8th grade, but given that I am taller than average in statistics, I chalk it up to reaching my full height early)
As of right now, I am not sure of people's perceptions, but I am thinking that for the past few years of what I went through, people thought I was just too nice/wimpy and they could just do anything to me.
Now, I am just a little cautious with people...everyone I meet.
I do have a friend that kinda understands me (as much as she can). We seem to be getting closer. I could definitely be more than friends with her, but at the same time, I love our friendship enough that if it doesn't happen, I'll still be happy with it. To be honest, I am not interested in romance or (feel free to attack me for this) sex with anyone. Close friendships are enough for me. And we get playful with each other. We tease each other playfully.
We talk about the possibility of being more than friends (she often brings it up), and she often talks about how she doesn't want to ruin our friendship. And I say let's not take that route. I'm okay to leave good enough alone. Neither of us could handle a relationship right now because of the things she has been through, and then the things I have been through (before we met). Me and her both have traumas that we have to work through before moving forward with that.
Awww Tiege...every time you post a story about yourself, it always tugs at my heart.
Wow man, that is powerful stuff. Thank you for sharing. No, not a chance in hell I would attack you for not wanting or chasing sex. I only get on Millennial Urbanist's case because he generalizes too damn much. Never because he has chosen not to pursue sex or relationships. It's not the choices he makes, it's the reasons he cites for making them that drive me bonkers. I will always encourage anyone to make the choices that are right for them. And it sounds like you are doing some pretty serious self work right now. Good for you, and I hope you journey to a happier place and get rid of the poison dart.
I know you wouldn't attack me. I'm just expecting some of the other posters to attack me for it. I don't think sex is the holy grail that it is made to be. (Probably because of what has happened to me).
Awww Tiege...every time you post a story about yourself, it always tugs at my heart.
There's happy parts too. I work for myself in a job that has a huge earning potential. One thing I have learned looking back at my life is that gratitude is very powerful.
Metaphysique: As a woman who loves the nerdy guys, you may find this amusing.
A couple of things that my partner has tried, in the hopes of meeting women...
He took up photography. Actually that's not the worst plan. But it didn't relieve him of his interminable shyness. So it didn't work that well, though he did have a lot of young ladies wanting photos in swimwear and he did enjoy that "work."
Here's the funny one.
Magic The Gathering. He actually believed, in the early days of the game, that getting into it he would meet women that he could try to date. Of course in hindsight even he finds it sad and funny.
Thing is, and I don't know if you've ever experienced this... With some of the quiet, shy, geeky, introvert type guys...it seems like, to me, there's a lot of awesome charm but it's under the surface. And they don't push the energy of their desire out there in blatant ways like many men do. So I think it's like, a lot of women don't have the patience to look deeper. Being the one who did, the one who has the honor and privilege, to see the awesome in someone that no one else has taken the time to see...it feels pretty wonderful.
Metaphysique: As a woman who loves the nerdy guys, you may find this amusing.
A couple of things that my partner has tried, in the hopes of meeting women...
He took up photography. Actually that's not the worst plan. But it didn't relieve him of his interminable shyness. So it didn't work that well, though he did have a lot of young ladies wanting photos in swimwear and he did enjoy that "work."
Here's the funny one.
Magic The Gathering. He actually believed, in the early days of the game, that getting into it he would meet women that he could try to date. Of course in hindsight even he finds it sad and funny.
Thing is, and I don't know if you've ever experienced this... With some of the quiet, shy, geeky, introvert type guys...it seems like, to me, there's a lot of awesome charm but it's under the surface. And they don't push the energy of their desire out there in blatant ways like many men do. So I think it's like, a lot of women don't have the patience to look deeper. Being the one who did, the one who has the honor and privilege, to see the awesome in someone that no one else has taken the time to see...it feels pretty wonderful.
Exactly! The men I've dated more seriously have all been quietly charming and endearing. I distinctly remember telling Mr. Meta he was charming right from the start, in a genuine way, not as a tactic to "get" me. He was smitten, and so kind and sweet. It really does take getting to know these quieter types to reveal their charming qualities. They have a way with words and how they express themselves when they're comfortable and vulnerable. Not a single one of these guys shied away from expressing their feelings and emotions, but it did take some of them periods of soul-searching and reflection to get to that place.
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, and learned the hard way how ineffective they were. I somehow managed to find a girlfriend first year of college (even if only for a few months), as well as not graduate a virgin thanks to a party hookup at another college. But my dating experiences were few and far between even well into my 20's.
