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To me, 'lying' in a context like this, a discussion of ethics, refers to keeping information from someone that you know they would want, or that is necessary for their informed consent (e.g. the wife did not consent to polygamy), or telling them fake information that you have reason to believe will do similar damage ('No, I am not cheating on you').
Or something like that. This was a first, rough attempt .
To me, 'lying' in a context like this, a discussion of ethics, refers to keeping information from someone that you know they would want, or that is necessary for their informed consent (e.g. the wife did not consent to polygamy), or telling them fake information that you have reason to believe will do similar damage ('No, I am not cheating on you').
Or something like that. This was a first, rough attempt .
I would go one step further that justifying the lying with the other person's relative happiness is an excuse to permit the offensive behavior in the first place.
To me, 'lying' in a context like this, a discussion of ethics, refers to keeping information from someone that you know they would want, or that is necessary for their informed consent (e.g. the wife did not consent to polygamy), or telling them fake information that you have reason to believe will do similar damage ('No, I am not cheating on you').
Or something like that. This was a first, rough attempt .
I would go one step further that justifying the lying with the other person's relative happiness is an excuse to permit the offensive behavior in the first place.
For me, that is another consent issue. It's making a choice for them, without their knowledge. Which I think is ok in some circumstances, when you can realistically make the choice they would make for themselves. Loves' examples are like this -- and they are also probably situations where the person making the choice has legal guardianship.
But when the choice the person is making happens to also benefit them, that gets pretty fishy. And sexual infidelity is the classic example. 'She is happier not knowing.' Yeah, right.
There is a problem defining integrity, I think. I would define it as doing the right thing even when no-one would ever know otherwise. Then the problem becomes deciding what the "right thing" is, and that will differ for most people because of individual ideas as well as social and cultural norms. It is further confused by so-called moral ideas, because some things that society calls (or has called) moral are anything but!
Integrity means doing what you think is right, and respecting the rights of other people. Pretty common sense. Someone who photographed someone nude without their knowledge and put the picture on the Internet, for example, would certainly be lacking in integrity.
That is really interesting. So it seems that you don't think that within the context of a marriage that a person has a right to expect the promise of fidelity to be kept? Nor that they have the right to honesty? Interesting.
Honestly, I find this sort of sanctimoniousness irritating. Lying does not equal not having "integrity and ethics." It depends on what the lie is about and the reasons for it. People lie about all sorts of things all the time. That's something that never seems to be acknowledged in these sorts of discussions.
Of course I'm not talking about white lies, aka the "social lubricant", I'm talking about stepping on someone's back to gain something, those kinds of lies....
I certainly didn't "feel" sanctimonious when I was posting it.
Integrity means doing what you think is right, and respecting the rights of other people. Pretty common sense. Someone who photographed someone nude without their knowledge and put the picture on the Internet, for example, would certainly be lacking in integrity.
Wrong. Integrity means being honest, moral and fair. Now I see why you are treading water on this thread, you insist on using a term you clearly don't understand. "Integrity" is a word with a concrete meaning.
Here are definitions from three well-vetted dictionaries:
Wrong. Integrity means being honest, moral and fair. Now I see why you are treading water on this thread, you insist on using a term you clearly don't understand. "Integrity" is a word with a concrete meaning.
Here are definitions from three well-vetted dictionaries:
You don't seem to understand "difference of opinion"--and what constitutes being "moral" and "fair" is open to a lot of interpretation (I've already discussed my thoughts on "honesty," you just choose not to listen).
You can't just say that someone who does something you morally disagree with is lacking in integrity, it doesn't work that way.
You don't seem to understand "difference of opinion"--and what constitutes being "moral" and "fair" is open to a lot of interpretation (I've already discussed my thoughts on "honesty," you just choose not to listen).
You can't just say that someone who does something you morally disagree with is lacking in integrity, it doesn't work that way.
So are you admitting that you were wrong about the definition of "integrity"? What is and is not moral is a seperate (and interesting) issue.
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