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I generally agree with this, except, as I was trying to illustrate tongue-in-cheek... if he's already got his sights set on her, I don't see how his judgement wouldn't be affected when doing the grades. At least if she wasn't a legitimate A student. I mean, if she's doing C work in this class, and the guy knows he's asking her out in January, what are the chances he actually gives her the C in December? And so it quickly becomes a rather tangled web we weave, right?
Then you have the situation where she may be a legitimate A student and he gives her the A in December and asks her out in January. No compromise of ethics here, but you still run a risk that it may appear there is something unethical going on. And by the time we're our age, we realize appearances really do count. But this is a risk... I wouldn't condemn the guy for asking her out of she earned the A and that's what he gave her. But that's just me. And we all know what a wacko I am, right? Other students may not see things the same way... heck the girl may not see things the same way, either, for that matter.
In summary, it's a risk. I don't think there's any getting around the appearance of impropriety if you're dating one of your students shortly after the semester ends. Now, if you were to wait a year after the semester ended... I'd say much, much less appearance of impropriety there. And somewhere in between... lies no-man's land.
In the end, the prof has to decide what risks he is willing to take. What do you expect to gain by asking this girl out, and what risk are you taking? How sensitive are the other professors on this issue? Is it really taboo on your campus, or something others do? And I assume you are not tenured yet at your age, so you probably need to step more carefully than a tenured prof. So it's not illegal, and it may not even be in fact unethical if you give her the grade she truly earns. But no matter how you cut it, the closer to the end of the semester you choose to date her, the stronger will be the appearance of impropriety. And, as I said, appearances do count.
I know what you're thinking. Have I bedded 6 coeds or only 5. Well, to tell you truth, with all this verbigeration, I kind of lost track myself. But being as your reputation may be on the line, and in your line of work reputation tends to follow you from one job to the next, and you could get kicked to the sidewalk if students start talking, you got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky." Well do ya.... prof?
That is clearly the better advice. But don't you (and I don't mean you, Shuke, in particular) ever get tired of being careful and weighing all the options to be sure you make the exactly right decision? She's an adult, she's cute, she's flirting with him, he's young and single and WTH? Yeah, it might be a mistake, but it could be the best mistake he's ever made.
That is clearly the better advice. But don't you (and I don't mean you, Shuke, in particular) ever get tired of being careful and weighing all the options to be sure you make the exactly right decision? She's an adult, she's cute, she's flirting with him, he's young and single and WTH? Yeah, it might be a mistake, but it could be the best mistake he's ever made.
Shuke usually does do a cost-benefit analysis in almost everything he does. And, unlike here, in real life, shuke has complete information on a first-hand basis. Here, we rarely have complete information and usually make some degree of assumptions. With complete information, that cost-benefit analysis often takes only a few seconds to complete. Thing is, shukey is very risk-tolerant. As a result, in the end, shukey usually throws caution to the wind. But that doesn't mean he doesn't understand the risks first.
Isn't everyone young, cute, and flirty in college? Sure she appeals to his sexual nature... but wouldn't she to others that are (in contrary) within her age limit?
You're right, I'm all about taking risks, and chances, and following your heart. But this perky little student of his may be his one-way ticket to self degredation in the eyes of his fellow colleagues/professors/employers.
You two are both correct. But, if we take the info from the OP at face value, she's a mature 19-year-old who is flirting with him. He's a young college professor who describes himself as fairly conservative with family and religious values. He understands there are risks involved. If he were 35 or 45 and had a history of dating sweet young things I'd say he'd be at a much greater risk for being looked down upon by his colleagues (sp?), but who can really begrudge a single 27-year-old going out on a date with a mature student who is no longer in his class?
BTW, I just finished reading The Time Traveler's Wife so it may have put me in a "throw caution to the wind and live for today" kind of mood....
Shuke usually does do a cost-benefit analysis in almost everything he does. And, unlike here, in real life, shuke has complete information on a first-hand basis. Here, we rarely have complete information and usually make some degree of assumptions. With complete information, that cost-benefit analysis often takes only a few seconds to complete. Thing is, shukey is very risk-tolerant. As a result, in the end, shukey usually throws caution to the wind. But that doesn't mean he doesn't understand the risks first.
I think cost-benefit analysis is the wrong test to apply here... where do business ethics come in?
The correct test should be conflict of interest or integrity test
May be he should notify his department head regarding wanting to go out with this girl? Document the intent.
BTW: I teach at a community college, not a four year University
Maybe everyone has different definitions of flirting. She simply smiles more, and talks about how her weekend a lot, etc. Thats could be flirting, but very light flirting.
I guess its not a big deal, I meet other women in other ways, much closer to my age, so just forgetting about is not a big deal at all. Although most I know I don't have as much in common with. I live in the Chicagoland area (suburbs), and I'm just don't feel willing to move to the Manhattan-wannabe concrete jungles of Lincoln Park, Wrigleyville, etc., etc., even though thats where more people my own age hang out.
I wish there were some hip, vibrant young people small towns/cities out towards the exurbs (I like being close to areas of rural character). Like take Evanston and replace where Crystal Lake or Woodstock would be. Kind of like how Ann Arbor is 40 miles from Detroit.
Anyways thats getting off topic.
Maybe people are just coming from different perspectives, or aren't reading posts thoroughly, or simply (for obvious reasons don't know me), but people are talking about stuff that doesn't really seem to apply to me.
While I am just like anyone else and have hormones, but my Catholic background has taught me to put other things first when looking at women to date.
Common interests are by far more important than anything else. I don't care how good-looking a woman is, if the common interests/values aren't there, I can't see myself having chemistry with someone.
But like I said, if its that big of a deal, then its not a big deal for me, and I'll be looking elsewhere.
So you're just going to give up? No argument? No fight? Hey, I didn't know this was community college we're talking about! I was already looking forward to some hot update in January.
OP.... yes it sort of makes a difference. A Community College is more likely to be more placid, a bit more relaxed as far as the social agendas for their professors possibly interacting with the students in an out of school environment.... I'm still not supporting this, but I'm saying, it would be fair to say it's a bit more lax than say, a prep Ivy league environment, where everyone's blood and sweat and hard earned money go into hand carving the marble statues that line the hallways to uphold the tenure of the teachers, their professionalism and ethics, and whatnot. ...eh this turned into a ramble.
Do you get out enough? I don't see anything wrong with that age gap.. I have a hard time justifying whether this is some older man preying on a bouncy young perky cheerful and outgoing (possibly to her own detriment) and attractive younger girl, that is probably turning down other men left and right, and would be sort of creeped out by one of her older teachers hitting on her on top of it all. Forgive me if I'm way off base. Honestly. (hugs)
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