Just helped a close friend avoid a "nice guy" - Thanks CD Relationships

[iknowftbll]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Huh? Let's try this again. Whether someone says they have brown eyes or whether they say they are nice, both are coming from the person and you have no evidence to the contrary. So if you don't assume they are lying about the color of their eyes, you shouldn't assume it about them being nice, either.

Please review and consider my suggestion that you learn the difference between a subjective and objective statement. Knowing the difference will probably help you keep up in a conversation like this one. If someone with brown eyes tells me they have blue I eyes I can see for myself it isn't true. If someone tells me he is a "nice guy" it is subjective because its meaning is context dependent. In a general context it can be a statement I believe or don't believe based on proof or lack thereof. In a relationships context I am suspicious because the term carries a negative connotation that everyone except self-described nice guys seem to be aware of. And as another poster stated, adding that he had "high standards" is actually an even bigger cautionary flag to me. This discussion homed in on the "nice guy" aspect, but the high standards comment would have me advising a friend or loved on to proceed with caution, if not run the other way entirely.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Bottom line: if you hear someone is a nice person, that is a STUPID reason to tell someone not to be with them.

It depends. If I hear it from third parties perhaps it is legitimate. If I hear someone repeatedly tell me how much he is a nice guy, I am prone to wonder why he feels the need to say so and won't just let his actions speak for themselves.

[cindersslipper]

Originally Posted by hawaiiancoconut

a guy that cleans his apartment once a week is man worth waiting in line for.

Uh, no...

A guy who'll clean MY apartment once a week is a guy worth waiting in line for.

[TJenkins602]

Originally Posted by *Sixy*

Rule of thumb for me...if someone has to TELL me that they are a good man (or reliable, honest,...etc.) they probably aren't. People who have those traits don't have to TELL you they do because it is so ingrained in them that it's not even something they need to single out about themselves.

I've learned the hard way that "I'm a good man" or "you can trust me" means the complete opposite.

Somehow, I picked up on that. There are certain things that if a person has to tell you, it is likely that the opposite is true.


I don't recall telling someone that he or she could trust me. A big reason for that is that I don't consider myself trustworthy. As a matter of fact, I don't trust myself.

Yet, ironically, I've had people tell me that they can trust me and that they do trust me.

Even though I don't trust myself, I do know that I have the other's best interests in mind. I just don't expect them to know that. (If they do, then I am impressed)

[TJenkins602]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

I'm a nice guy, meaning I want more than just sex,I open the door for women, I say bless you when they sneeze, and when I become friends with a woman it really is friends, though sometimes I have feelings or develop them later.

The ones to avoid are the alpha males, the sexually aggressive ones who want only sex, do cold approaches, and engage in the bad behavior that women say they don't like.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

If someone doesn't treat others well then by definition they are not nice. You guys are using a strange definition of nice guy. My definition is "a male adult human who treats others with respect and courtesy".

Beta males, in addition to being nice guys, want meaningful relationships, don't pursue casual sex with strangers, are interested in giving women orgasms, are willing to go shopping with them, etc. Women often claim they want to be with us, but usually discourage us in favor of alpha males.

As opposed to an alpha male who just wants to use women for sex, cheats on them with a younger woman,etc. The alpha male is what women should avoid, but unfortunately, alpha males are usually encouraged by women.


Like I said, the good news is that the alpha male eventually matures into a beta male. But why not be with someone who started out beta?

Isn't that one of the theories of why women date jerks or your "alpha males"? They are hoping that they will "mature" into nice guys or that they will change for them.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Well, that's irrelevant to this thread, because if it meant something negative, one wouldn't say that to a potential relationship partner.

Let's say "I'm a nice guy" really means "I'm someone who will abuse you".

Why would someone say to a potential relationship partner "I'm someone who will abuse you"?

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Who said anyone tried to convince? The man heard a woman ask about another man who said they were a nice guy. The OP no doubt wants to be with this woman. Like I said that's exactly what happened to me. No doubt J is still telling T that nice guys are bad when in fact it was J who committed the immoral act, not me. I wasn't even trying to be with T, but I definitely had feelings for her. And no, I don't recall ever saying to T that I am a nice guy. But before J did what she did, I think if you asked T, she would say I'm a nice guy.

That's what a girl in high school said about me who was considered very beautiful and was very popular. She was talking to her friend about whom she might ask out, and her friend said "what about [me]" and she said "he's nice, but...". Story of my life.

It would help if we had exact quotes, like what exactly the woman said to the OP.



It is actually women who do that. Women encourage alpha male behavior. Then they wonder why they have never been with a nice guy or beta male. We're not going to get involved if we see you with an alpha male. We might try but we would be turned away, resulting in our heartbreak. At least that happened to me (in other instances than what I discussed above). I'm not bitter, people feel how they feel, it's not their fault. I don't feel anger about that sort of stuff, just sadness. I'm just sharing my experiences.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Again, we don't know the context of the phrase "nice guy".

For example, if the "nice guy" said to the OP's friend "well, people say I'm a nice guy, I just have standards" then I think he is using the standard definition, not this other weird definition. Even if they did say it five times, as long as it was in this context, and unless we have a direct quote supporting the concept that he intended deception, I don't think this person intended to deceive.

But, like I said, I for one don't normally announce to people that others say I am a nice guy. It wouldn't normally come up in conversation. It has happened before, though.

OP -- convince me that you are not interested in being involved with the person who asked you this advice and that you were not telling them off for that reason. Because that was done to me, when I hadn't done anything wrong.

Originally Posted by CoolZombie

You're creating a false scenario, you could just as easily say "what if the Grand Wizard of the KKK showed up with an assault rifle". If my daughter/sister/mother liked a man who described himself as a "nice guy", why would I assume he was a rapist sociopath just from that? Women aren't complete mental defectives who need their every romantic decision micromanaged by men, we don't live in Iran. The Dissenter was either crotch blocking that man out of bitterness or because he liked that woman and wanted her for himself. What he did is the equivalent to just randomly starting speculation that a guy has an STD or a small member, basically libeling someone he didnt know.

That woman was a moron to rely on the advice of someone who takes advice from a message board of dating world losers. Why would I not want my daughter/sister/mother to be with a nice man? I should want her to be with a druggie/creepo/bum? Your argument has no logic behind it.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Again, based on what? The fact that he mentioned that he was a nice guy? Being nice is normally positive.



Friends, eh? So you have no romantic interest in this person whatsoever? I question that.



I don't either, but sometimes it comes up in conversation, such as with this question: "so, if I asked someone else about you, what would they say?"

So if someone asks you that and you respond "they would probably say I'm a nice guy and a cool person", that means you're actually an alpha male who abuses women and uses them as objects?

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

So, why doesn't Urban Dictionary, a user edited dictionary for slang terms in popular culture, agree with the lame definition of "nice guy" used on this board?

Urban Dictionary: nice guy

Urban Dictionary uses the normal definition of a nice guy.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

In other words, I was right.

It is good to be a nice guy.

Rather than being "toxic", such men are just not attractive to women who prefer alpha males, even though it is alpha males who exhibit all the behavior that hurts them, and it is we beta males and/or nice guys who do not exhibit said behavior.

If you date an alpha male, yes they will be "confident" and aggressive, and they will dominate you, but they also won't listen to your problems, seek more than just sex, want to spend time with you such as going shopping, etc.

Like I said, the good news is that eventually the alpha male matures and becomes a beta male. Some of us though were beta from the beginning.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

No, the blaming others comes from the truth.

Many women are attracted to the alpha males who will metaphorically club them over the head and drag them to the cave. Such women would never be interested in a nice guy, despite claiming they want one. Despite all the pain in their lives caused by alpha males.




Nice guys are not hurtful, no. We are the ones that women come to, seeking a shoulder to cry on after the alpha male, whom they encouraged, has done something to hurt them.



No, I think you failed to realize that the definition you quoted was written by an alpha male.

The beta male listens to your problems and wants more than sex because he is a mature, intellectual, enlightened person. It has nothing to do with blaming others for things they didn't do.



Well, it appears you are one of those women who prefer alpha males. Just don't complain about the problems that come with them, if you are going to encourage the alpha male.

In my experience, blaming others comes from cowardice.

I must have went on a clubbing spree in the past year. I might be going on another one this Easter weekend, who knew?

Head is starting to hurt.

You know with all this talk about alphas and betas, maybe you are neglecting a group, humans. You know something else? My girlfriend cries on my shoulder after one of my friends who is your alpha male (who is really more like a beta male who pretends to be alpha) throws a tantrum and ******* her out because she rather be with me than him. If I would have witnessed that, I would have possibly taken some harsh action against that dude. I could be alpha, too.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Right, which is bad. Dominant males want to get women by whatever means necessary, including cheating, lying, etc.

Nice guys only want it to do it the right way, by being nice.

Women prefer the alphas because most of them want to be dominated. They see this as the natural order, in which they are probably correct. In the world of lower animals, where consciousness and will are not factors, the passive male will not get as many mates as the dominant or alpha male.

But again, the consequences of being dominant are that they see women as [female dogs], they only want sex, they don't want to go shopping or see romantic comedies, etc.

By being nice, you mean kissing backside? Letting others walk all over you? All for the sole intention of getting that tail???

I think your version of a dominant male is known among women that I know as creeps.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

The following is THE FIRST DEFINITION and therefore the most popular one on Urban Dictionary (they are sorted by which one has the highest number of endorsements).



That definition has 4946 thumbs up. The one that pixie quoted has 1239 thumbs up. That's why the one I quoted is listed first.

Hence, the crowd -- the users of Urban Dictionary -- agree with the normal definition of nice guy, the definition that one would derive if one looked up "nice" and "guy" in the dictionary.

Originally Posted by iknowftbll

Being a natural leader is a bad thing? First time I've heard that.



Ironically, I've seen this sort of behavior more out of betas than alphas. It's as if they cannot compete so they are compensating. But I am not going to make the same oversimplifications you are. Not all betas do it that way. Plenty of them are able to draw interest from eligible females simply by being themselves. Plenty of alphas do it this way too, despite the fact you wish it were not true.



I consider myself an alpha, that is I am a near point for point match for type-A personality traits. I have never lied to a woman to get her in bed. I have never raped a woman. I have not cheated to get a woman. I cold approached the woman who would later become my wife (decisiveness, shaping outcomes instead of accepting them). I have carried my wife's purse in the mall. I am generally nice to people I meet. Yet I am not a "nice guy" by the pop culture dating definition. And in reality I'm not trying to be a nice guy in the normal definition either. I'm just being myself.

Your point with this statement is...pointless.



Women do not necessarily prefer alphas so much as it is naturally the alphas who are more prone to approach women and start a conversation. Before I was married I did this a lot. I never had any funny pick up lines, never used PUA "game" or any of that nonsense. I simply introduced myself and started talking. Did it always work? Of course not. Not all women are open to being cold approached. But like I said above, the woman I am now married to is someone I cold approached. You miss all the shots you don't take (Gretsky). It is not that women "prefer" alphas. It is that they respond to alphas because alphas are the ones who approach them.



Again, a statement as flawed and gloriously inaccurate as this can only be made if the foundation of one's argument is fundamentally flawed. Once again you are prescribing behavioral traits to personality types. Dead wrong. Laughably so. I know plenty of alpha who are perfect gentlemen and defer to their wives' needs or preferences. Being an alpha does not make a guy a bad guy. Being a beta does not make a guy a good guy. The opposite of these statements is true as well. It's easy to understand if you are willing to put personality types in one column and behavioral traits in a different column. Lumping them together is intellectual laziness.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Being a natural leader with regard to sexual behavior is a bad thing, yes.



By definition if you see the behavior, that person is not a beta male.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Being a leader in regards to sexual behavior requires being aggressive and coming up to multiple women, grabbing them in inappropriate places etc. Men who engage in these alpha male behaviors are extremely successful in finding girlfriends, ergo, the vast majority prefers what they do.

Oy!!!!

You know, some of these men are also successful in becoming girlfriends. Being stuck in a "marriage" so to speak till time is served...

Sounds more like cavemen to be honest.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Right. Which is how human beings refer to the act of reproduction.



Myself and the crowd as seen at Urban Dictionary. Your view seems to be the less popular one by a wide margin.



If someone said "there is no such thing as the force of gravity", I would understand their statement, but I would not agree.

I don't know if you understand the gravity of the statements you are making in this board.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Huh? That's not what I'm saying. I saying that "sexual behavior" in animals refers to sex only, whereas "sexual behavior" in humans refers to how they deal with relationships. When a human has sexual intercourse there is more involved, because we have intelligence, whereas animal sex is just that. I think you must have missed one of my posts or something.

Anyway, alpha males are far more successful at entering relationships -- in other words, their sexual behavior is far more successful -- than beta males.



I'm a virgin. Never had a girlfriend. Since I am a beta male and I want a relationship and not casual sex, and no one is interested in me for a relationship, the consequence is that I'm a virgin.



How do you figure??? Again the highest voted definitions agree with me.

Well, I guess this post explains a lot about you.

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

No, those are things that alpha males do to be aggressive. Beta males are the ones who treat women nicely in the context of romantic relationships.



Unless you consider leaving the toilet seat up to be bad behavior in this context, yes, the bad behavior is unique to alpha males.



Well, women encourage men who cheat on them, only want sex, etc. Those are alpha male behaviors.



Well, yes, once they GET the relationship, over time they exhibit beta behavior, I have said that several times. However, the process of getting the relationship involves their aggressive behavior or "typical man" behavior.

ARRRRGH!!!! Migraine!!!!

Originally Posted by lovesMountains

Well, BLESS YOUR HEART , you sound like you need to take a break from this foolishness

Loves!!! (Runs over to hug her while crying on her shoulder)


What is going on here?!

I'm having a breakdown!!! A$$ backwards definitions... hijacked thread... senseless, absurdities,



...PASSES OUT!!!

[Wry_Martini]

Are we really trying to use Urban Dictionary as proof of anything???

[1Wing]

Originally Posted by udolipixie

None of that appeals to my quote since the point was that it's not necessarily cockblocking aka done out of desire to have sex with a gal that one gives her negative advice on a guy that results in his rejection.

Not sure why I just got a notification about this thread today. I'd forgotten all about it.

It relates to your quote because that quote was setting up a separate situation asking how one would react if a girl who was close to you was in said situation. People make exceptions for those to whom they are close. That was my point. I am pointing out the argument used to make a point, not making a judgment call on the thread topic.

Simply put, the quoted appeal asking about a girl to whom one is close was a diversionary tactic. It was going for the sympathy vote, in a manner of speaking. To me, it's the equivalent of watching a scene in a movie or on tv and suddenly... cue the string section and gently played piano

"Well, what if it was your sister?"

[Woof]

Originally Posted by The Dissenter

Just had to give credit where credit is due to y'all. A good female friend of mine asked for my input on a guy who made a interesting statement to her. Basically the guy said he was a "nice guy" and had high standards. My time in this forum helped me realize that was a red flag. We've been over it plenty folks, the guys who call themselves nice guys are some of the most toxic to women. I advised her, steer clear. I'm glad my experiences in this forum helped me to help a good friend make a bad mistake.

Self-descriptions are usually BS in my opinion, whether the person making them realizes it or not.

Have you ever watched a bird doing a mating dance? He puffs up his chest feathers, struts around her confidently, and sings more boisterously than he does otherwise. It's all BS intended to convince her that he is the best mate.

Human males have a wide variety of mating tactics, since women react to different approaches. He probably just found success with the "nice guy, high standards" vocalizations in the past. You can only tell what he is like through extensive dating.

[highlife2]

TJ why is your girl friend hanging out with your friend. Why does your friend want to hang out with her is the even bigger question or you for that matter if you posses the object of his affection. If I were him I would just walk away from you and her.