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Old 07-12-2014, 05:00 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,082 posts, read 107,113,138 times
Reputation: 115875

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NilaJones View Post
What? No one is advocating that! That's crazy.

An emotionally healthy guy (or girl) is incapable of falling for someone they are not already in a relationship with.

I think we need to talk about this, because it has come up in several other guys' threads.

If you feel you have fallen for someone, or are in love with them, and you do not have an emotionally intimate relationship with them that predates your feelings, then the person you love is not real. You are not in love with the real girl you see in front of you. You are in love with who you imagine her to be. This is called 'projection', and healthy people cannot do it.

The way normal dating works is this: You see someone who catches your interest. Maybe you see her physically, or maybe you see a paper she wrote or something. Anyway, something gives you the impression that she might be cool, and compatible with you.

You talk to her. She and you both use the conversation to continue to assess, update, reassess whether the two of you might be compatible. Does she like pizza? Great, so do you! Does she like country music? Uh-oh, but maybe we can work with that. And so on.

If there are no major red flags in the first minutes/hours/weeks of conversation, you two go on a date. The process of learning about each other and re-evaluating compatibiity continues. Once you know each other very well (are emotionally intimate, can talk about serious feelings and do so) then you might fall in love.

You don't fall in love and then talk to her. That's not what love means.
Right. You don't fall for someone first, then get to know them. The "falling for" happens as a result of getting to know them. They become more attractive to you as you get to know them (IF you like the personality, values, ideas, approach to life, etc. they present to you), so you begin to fall for them at that point. Falling for them first is putting the cart before the horse. Something's wrong in that scenario, so you should find out why you have this tendency, if that's really the way it is.

 
Old 07-12-2014, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
938 posts, read 1,509,798 times
Reputation: 777
I agree that men should learn to save falling in love with a woman until after they have a good idea of what kind of person she is. Love at First Sight is like winning the lottery. Don't bet your life on it.

Okay, here's a specific question that I hope I can get a pro-woman yet practical answer for:

You're a socially awkward guy. You're starting to come out of your shell. You have a few male friends and a couple of female friends. You're interested in dating one of them. She's not like a good friend or anything, but you want to make it clear to her that you're interested and would like to finally take the initiative and ask her out.

The problem is that you've never had a real romantic/sexual relationship before. You now have a little experience talking to women, but strictly on a platonic level. How do you get her to see you as more than a friend, and if she's not interested (because, since you aren't a "Nice Guy" with an entitlement complex, you know you don't have the RIGHT to have her interested in you), keep her from being totally creeped out by a friend liking her in a sexual/romantic way? You like her as a person and would love to keep her as a friend even after she's aware of your feelings for her.
 
Old 07-12-2014, 05:17 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,082 posts, read 107,113,138 times
Reputation: 115875
Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
I agree that men should learn to save falling in love with a woman until after they have a good idea of what kind of person she is. Love at First Sight is like winning the lottery. Don't bet your life on it.

Okay, here's a specific question that I hope I can get a pro-woman yet practical answer for:

You're a socially awkward guy. You're starting to come out of your shell. You have a few male friends and a couple of female friends. You're interested in dating one of them. She's not like a good friend or anything, but you want to make it clear to her that you're interested and would like to finally take the initiative and ask her out.

The problem is that you've never had a real romantic/sexual relationship before. You now have a little experience talking to women, but strictly on a platonic level. How do you get her to see you as more than a friend, and if she's not interested (because, since you aren't a "Nice Guy" with an entitlement complex, you know you don't have the RIGHT to have her interested in you), keep her from being totally creeped out by a friend liking her in a sexual/romantic way? You like her as a person and would love to keep her as a friend even after she's aware of your feelings for her.
What? How long have you known this woman? Without knowing more, it's hard to advise, but just ask her out for a weekend activity. Museum, concert, whatever. Get a snack or something afterwards, and tell her you've got it covered. If she doesn't get the picture, find a way during the conversation to tell her you'd like to get to know her better.

Pretty simple. It seems like you're creating obstacles in your mind. It's not as hard as you think.
 
Old 07-12-2014, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
938 posts, read 1,509,798 times
Reputation: 777
Let's say that you've known the woman for two months, and have only hung out with her with other people.

A socially anxious guy is usually aware of his awkwardness and is not looking forward to the awkwardness of her saying "no". What should he do if she says "no"?

And if she says yes, and you pay for her meal, now what? How does he keep the relationship moving forward? Remember that a socially awkward guy probably doesn't naturally know the etiquette for touching (holding hands, kissing) the way that regular people who have had dates since they were 12 would.
 
Old 07-12-2014, 05:41 PM
 
2,087 posts, read 2,841,223 times
Reputation: 1560
Quote:
Originally Posted by NilaJones View Post
What? No one is advocating that! That's crazy.

An emotionally healthy guy (or girl) is incapable of falling for someone they are not already in a relationship with.

I think we need to talk about this, because it has come up in several other guys' threads.

If you feel you have fallen for someone, or are in love with them, and you do not have an emotionally intimate relationship with them that predates your feelings, then the person you love is not real. You are not in love with the real girl you see in front of you. You are in love with who you imagine her to be. This is called 'projection', and healthy people cannot do it.
I'm not sure how many would agree with you. Friends fall for friends pretty often.

Though I agree it should never happen if you are smart and I guarantee it will never happen to me again.

Anyway, I'm kind of too old to go that route even if I was still dumb enough to do so.

But we generally agree. You should NEVER fall for someone you are not f@cking. A little crude, but you get the point.
 
Old 07-12-2014, 05:46 PM
 
2,087 posts, read 2,841,223 times
Reputation: 1560
Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
I agree that men should learn to save falling in love with a woman until after they have a good idea of what kind of person she is. Love at First Sight is like winning the lottery. Don't bet your life on it.

Okay, here's a specific question that I hope I can get a pro-woman yet practical answer for:

You're a socially awkward guy. You're starting to come out of your shell. You have a few male friends and a couple of female friends. You're interested in dating one of them. She's not like a good friend or anything, but you want to make it clear to her that you're interested and would like to finally take the initiative and ask her out.

The problem is that you've never had a real romantic/sexual relationship before. You now have a little experience talking to women, but strictly on a platonic level. How do you get her to see you as more than a friend, and if she's not interested (because, since you aren't a "Nice Guy" with an entitlement complex, you know you don't have the RIGHT to have her interested in you), keep her from being totally creeped out by a friend liking her in a sexual/romantic way? You like her as a person and would love to keep her as a friend even after she's aware of your feelings for her.
Again, don't worry about keeping her as a friend. I bet it all that 10 years from now, one way or another, you will not be friends, or at least not close friends.

Just ask her out one on one. That's how you do. She'll either a) freak the hell out because she thinks you're unattractive and say no, b) freak out because she thinks you're unattractive but go on the date anyway (who knows why), or c) give you a chance.

If she gives you a chance, then you've got probably at least a 10% chance from that point.
 
Old 07-12-2014, 06:02 PM
 
6,732 posts, read 9,965,961 times
Reputation: 6848
Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
Let's say that you've known the woman for two months, and have only hung out with her with other people.

A socially anxious guy is usually aware of his awkwardness and is not looking forward to the awkwardness of her saying "no". What should he do if she says "no"?

And if she says yes, and you pay for her meal, now what? How does he keep the relationship moving forward? Remember that a socially awkward guy probably doesn't naturally know the etiquette for touching (holding hands, kissing) the way that regular people who have had dates since they were 12 would.
The socially awkward guy learns this stuff from books and movies targeting a female audience, from the female friends that he has emotionally close, two-way conversations with(not only he or only she talking about their troubles), and from the two years of counseling that he went to before thinking about dating.

Before asking the girl out, he asks his female friends whether they think she is attracted to him.

Often, socially awkward guys do not know what real friendships are like, so I am trying to give more detail.

Also, the socially awkward guy recognises that converting a friend to a dating partner, as opposed to dating someone he met more recently, is advanced level romance. He does not attempt it if he has never had a relationship. (Although, from what you describe, she may not actually be a friend, more friend-of-friends.)

--

ETA: The correct response to 'no' is some form of 'thank you'. No, I am not kidding. She has done you the favor of being honest.

If she has actually said the word no, she has also broken a taboo in order to give you clarity and closure. Women are not supposed to say that word.

More likely, she says something like, 'Oh, I would love to, but I have a boyfriend / am moving to Cleveland / promised my hymen to Satan.'

Then your response is, 'Aw, such a shame. <smile at her> Thanks for letting me down easy.'

By accepting her 'no' gracefully, you save both of you any embarrassment and there is no need to be awkward around each other in the future. You have also made a good impression on her, which she will convey to her hot friends.

Last edited by NilaJones; 07-12-2014 at 06:11 PM..
 
Old 07-12-2014, 06:49 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,082 posts, read 107,113,138 times
Reputation: 115875
Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
Let's say that you've known the woman for two months, and have only hung out with her with other people.

A socially anxious guy is usually aware of his awkwardness and is not looking forward to the awkwardness of her saying "no". What should he do if she says "no"?

And if she says yes, and you pay for her meal, now what? How does he keep the relationship moving forward? Remember that a socially awkward guy probably doesn't naturally know the etiquette for touching (holding hands, kissing) the way that regular people who have had dates since they were 12 would.
At this stage, you shouldn't be thinking about holding hands or kissing. You just want to 1. get to the first date, 2. get through the first date fairly smoothly, and 3. set up the 2nd date, assuming you liked her and she liked you on the 1st date.

After date 1, you wait for her to text or call a "thank you". Then you respond, "I had a great time, too. Would you be up for another date?", or something of that nature. If she says "yes", you say, "Great. I'll call you." And you get back to us to ask what a socially-awkward guy should offer as a 2nd date.

 
Old 07-12-2014, 08:24 PM
 
12,535 posts, read 15,159,419 times
Reputation: 29087
Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
The suggestions have been very vague and general, mainly about improving oneself, being more social, taking time to get to know women, and that relationships with naturally follow.

Lilac110 said that even having a set "method" is misogynist because it's treating "women" as a goal. Maybe it's natural for the women here to simply suggest general life advice rather than giving socially anxious men the tools they need to find love. But it's not helpful from the man's point of view.
Wow, you just want someone to give you some magic spell, don't you? You want someone to do all the work and all the thinking for you. Heaven forbid you put some effort into treating women as humans and getting to know them as individuals. Good luck with that.
 
Old 07-12-2014, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
938 posts, read 1,509,798 times
Reputation: 777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
Wow, you just want someone to give you some magic spell, don't you? You want someone to do all the work and all the thinking for you. Heaven forbid you put some effort into treating women as humans and getting to know them as individuals. Good luck with that.
Hey just to be clear, I don't have personal investment in this thread because I'm getting married in August, thank you very much.

I already have my own ways of getting to date women that upon asking my feminist sister, are apparently incredibly misogynist and anti-feminist (I disagree) but have allowed me to get to know some nice women and most importantly, to meet my now fiancee. I'm interested in feminist-friendly advice for other people, having more than a couple of male friends who are in their mid twenties and haven't had a real relationship before. I want these people to have some PRACTICAL advice. Not just general behaviors that are obvious to anyone who isn't a psychopathic monster or living under a rock, like treating women like human beings and knowing them as individuals. These people have female friends but have problems going from mere platonic relationships to something more, and treating them the way that they treat their guy friends isn't getting them anywhere.

Please try to see things from a socially anxious guy's point of view. One who isn't a Nice Guy with an entitlement complex but has found that simply treating women like human beings has given him quite a few female acquaintances and even some casual friends, but no one who sees him as dating material.
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