Men who gave up on women (friendship, passive, honest, attract)

[cpg35223]

Originally Posted by timberline742

I agree. I don't think it is just men though, there are lots of people that hear but don't listen. The words are coming in but they're just formulating a response and not actually absorbing.

The big mistake I see here is that guys somehow thing women and men are fundamentally different and have to be dealt with differently or listened to differently. I've never ever gotten that. People are people.

All this is true.

Listening is really a skill. Lots of people aren't listening, but rather just looking for an opening to talk some more. So they hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest, to quote Paul Simon.

It's kind of like selling. The bad salesman walks into a meeting, opens his briefcase, and starts yapping about whatever he's trying to flog. The good salesman walks into a meeting and asks his prospect what problem they are trying to solve.

[Bearsdad]

My best friend did this 15 years ago. He is 57 and has no intentions of dating or getting married again ever. His reasoning is he lost so much in his divorce he can't afford to take the chance financially, or he won't be able to retire, and he doesn't want to have his heart broken again. He has a deal with a 20's prostitute to come over every Friday after payday and "take care of his needs" then leave. His theory is it's cheaper than a wife, there are no games to get sex, she never says no, and it's guaranteed no-strings. Works for him and he is happy as any guy I know.

[ohio_peasant]

Originally Posted by cpg35223

They really aren't. The problem is that a large proportion of men are terrible listeners. By that, they might hear what a woman says, but they're not trying all that hard to understand what a woman is saying.

Originally Posted by timberline742

I agree. I don't think it is just men though, there are lots of people that hear but don't listen. The words are coming in but they're just formulating a response and not actually absorbing.

No argument from me on that one. What disconcerts me is the implication that "hearing but not listening" is somehow NOT the normal human condition. I contend that it is, that most of us are merely playing elevator-music in our minds, waiting for one's interlocutor to pause, so that our words could come forth.

Originally Posted by timberline742

The big mistake I see here is that guys somehow thing women and men are fundamentally different and have to be dealt with differently or listened to differently. I've never ever gotten that. People are people.

Of course people are people, but differences can be profound. I marvel how for example there are profound differences in perceptions and values between rural and urban denizens. Would it not stand to reason that men and women have different fears, different aspirations, different risk-tolerance and causes of disappointment and manifestations of appetite, and so forth?

Originally Posted by cpg35223

Listening is really a skill. Lots of people aren't listening, but rather just looking for an opening to talk some more. So they hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest, to quote Paul Simon.

It's kind of like selling. The bad salesman walks into a meeting, opens his briefcase, and starts yapping about whatever he's trying to flog. The good salesman walks into a meeting and asks his prospect what problem they are trying to solve.

But does it not stand to reason, that "selling" is a comparatively rare skill? If the preponderance of people were good salespersons, would not society (not to mention commerce) have been markedly different?

My point is that if inter-gender understanding is achievable by the "skilled", and if said skills are rare, then effectively women ARE inscrutable to men, and vice versa.

Originally Posted by Bearsdad

My best friend did this 15 years ago. He is 57 and has no intentions of dating or getting married again ever. His reasoning is he lost so much in his divorce he can't afford to take the chance financially, or he won't be able to retire, and he doesn't want to have his heart broken again. He has a deal with a 20's prostitute to come over every Friday after payday and "take care of his needs" then leave. His theory is it's cheaper than a wife, there are no games to get sex, she never says no, and it's guaranteed no-strings. Works for him and he is happy as any guy I know.

While the personage described here may be suffering from a lamentable pathology, there is at least to the cynics something appealing about his approach. My question is a practical one: how does this man avoid spending his "retirement" in prison?

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by ohio_peasant

Of course people are people, but differences can be profound. I marvel how for example there are profound differences in perceptions and values between rural and urban denizens. Would it not stand to reason that men and women have different fears, different aspirations, different risk-tolerance and causes of disappointment and manifestations of appetite, and so forth?

No, not really. Since rural and urban are really mostly self selecting. Biological sex is not. People have differences in these things you mention, but I've never seen nor experienced anything that shows me that the differences between the sexes are real in these regards, or at least not statistically significantly larger (I guess this would be an anova?) than the differences between individuals.

[Anabasis X]

equality isn't sameness. The differences between men and women are colossal, and if you don't see it, you fail at observing life.

[smisk]

I (hopefully) haven't given up on women permanently, but it's been a year since I was in a relationship and I haven't approached any women in the past few months. I've kinda accepted that I'm not that good at attracting women and would rather not risk rejection. Currently taking some time to focus on other aspects of my life. Hopefully sometime in the future I'll have the energy to try dating again.

[ohio_peasant]

Originally Posted by timberline742

No, not really. Since rural and urban are really mostly self selecting. Biological sex is not. People have differences in these things you mention, but I've never seen nor experienced anything that shows me that the differences between the sexes are real in these regards, or at least not statistically significantly larger (I guess this would be an anova?) than the differences between individuals.

Of course, we don’t choose our gender at birth, any more than we choose our birth itself. But as a biologist, would you reject the idea that gender-associated hormones play significant role in shaping our brains?

Without going into abstruse statistical concepts, it seems to me that intra-population variations can be larger than inter-population variations, and nevertheless the inter-population variations still matter a lot.

For example, an older, smaller and ill-fit man might only be able to bench press 50 pounds. A boy in his late teens might bench 100 pounds. A moderately athletic man benches 200, a fairly serious weight lifter does 300, and a really butch weight-lifting specialist does 500 pounds or more. That's an intra-population variation of 10X. Just to make up some numbers, say that amongst women, the weaker older ones bench 30 pounds, a female athlete benches 120 pounds, and a maximum-effort female weightlifter does 300…. 60% of the men's numbers, up and down the line, with a 10X variation amongst the women. So… the intra-population variation is 10X, but the inter-population ratio is only 5:3. And yet I still think that the statement "men bench press more than women" is a more substantial and more meaningful statement than say "strong men bench press more than weak men", even though the latter is quantitatively more rigorous.

Returning to relationships and dating – which ostensibly is our topic here – I'd make the somewhat obvious assertion that men and women have different needs, aims and expectations in relationships. They always have. This isn't the tired accusations of who has more "power", who is more choosy and so forth. It's about needs and values. These things will persist whether we have a nominally gender-equal society, or revert to something like Saudi Arabia.

[DavidRudisha]

I've given up on pursuing women. I'm sure there exist women with whom I'd be well matched, but I just don't have the emotional capital for the process of pursuing them. The only way I'll acquire a mate is if she asks me out.

[MJPreti]

I gave up three years ago. I hold no resentment towards women in general, just a couple where things didn't work out the way I expected them to. My fault for javing ecpectations to begin with I suppose. She had her own faults too but they are no longer my problem. I was a virgin until I was 26. I was waiting for marriage. I gave it up one night to a complete stranger as a bad decision. Realized sex was overrated. Kept trying to focus for the next two years on the "getting to someone for who they are aspect". Grew tired of being friendzone only material. Or the other guy. Or the shoulder to cry on but not special enough to be the dick to ride on. Cared deeply for three different women over the course of 15 years. After the last one who treated me as the "other guy" entered into a real relationship and expected me to retain my unofficial role, I had had enough. We got into a big fight. I moved out the next morning. We haven't spoken since. I've remained celibate since. I don't date. I don't even try. I have no interest. I don't even care to have female friends out of fear of misconstruing my feelings for them. Or becoming attached to someone again more so than they are attached to me. Nothing wrong with attachments but I don't care to complicate things again.
Nothing wrong with those that pursue love or find it either. Its just not for everyone. And my life has become nice and simple for me, ever since I disengaged from the opposite sex. The most difficult decision outside of work I ever have to make is where I am going to eat dinner at. I'm more happier in life now than I ever was meeting and greeting the opposite sex, trying to dance some weird courtship with people that either did not want to dance with me or wanted to dance to a different beat.

[Bryant17]

Do you mean as a gender,or individually?

I haven't yet, but its almost time. I hate to quit, but I have no prospects. I've had 2 opportunities since 2005, so around 2028, I'll have another shot (maybe).