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What this thread really illustrates is the huge divide between the sexes, and just because you as a man would like it, doesn't mean women should too.
The genders are not wired the same, have very different world views on subjects, and the answer is to understand and respect those differences, not expect one gender to change to do things and think like the other gender.
Yeah, and there does seem to be a bit of an undertone that because women don't generally like objectification, that they're being uptight prudes or paranoid or whatever. It goes back to the the point that was brought up a few pages back--very few men have actually felt physically threatened by a woman, like she could hurt him and he couldn't stop her--that seems to be the big difference.
What this thread really illustrates is the huge divide between the sexes, and just because you as a man would like it, doesn't mean women should too.
The genders are not wired the same, have very different world views on subjects, and the answer is to understand and respect those differences, not expect one gender to change to do things and think like the other gender.
And that is a central point that has been repeated a few times here. I anything we should embrace that reality. Men shouldn't approach it with an attitude of, " it doesn't bother us so it shouldn't bother them." Women cannot reasonably expect men to relate on the issue of sexual objectification. We are different. We should approach each other as such.
I didn't read it like that, but I don't know the OP's posting history. The words themselves though didn't indicate to me anything like your impression above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATG5
I just re-read all of his posts and the context surrounded them, and didn't get that vibe whatsoever.
Not sure why you're assuming he has some ulterior motive here.
Maybe he gives that impression because he had to throw in there the "financial objectification", women asking about his job, income potential, assets, education level and expecting to pay for everything, making a comparison of the way men and women may "objectify" each other and then suggesting that men would not be offended if they were "objectified" in the way that women are.
I believe that, as others have suggested, that the definition of objectification is being used very loosely.
Several times on dates a girl would openly say that I am not tall or big enough. I'm actually glad they openly said it to my face than had me linger hopelessly. I've dated someone for weeks and wouldn't tell me that she wasn't physically attracted to me enough because I don't look like Hugh Jackman or the likes and that made me really upset because I didn't know she was fixated on a particular "type."
So for guys out there, it may hurt your ego at first but it's better to strike out early in the count than have to stay around to close out the game late.
Yes totally agree. If you strike out early you can go back.to.the drawing board and restructure your strategy. Oh by the way forget Hugh Jackman.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,957,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll
And that is a central point that has been repeated a few times here. I anything we should embrace that reality. Men shouldn't approach it with an attitude of, " it doesn't bother us so it shouldn't bother them." Women cannot reasonably expect men to relate on the issue of sexual objectification. We are different. We should approach each other as such.
Well I don't think, and nothing I've experienced, indicates that men and women are fundamentally wired mentally or emotionally different, at all, in any arena from relationships to business.
I think the issue here is more a grass is always greener thing (I've never experienced it, I'm not good looking, it would be nice to be wanted for my looks... just once; while women experience it from an early age and rather commonly), and a certain amount of male privilege (the fear of assault) mixed in.
Well I don't think, and nothing I've experienced, indicates that men and women are fundamentally wired mentally or emotionally different, at all, in any arena from relationships to business.
I think the issue here is more a grass is always greener thing (I've never experienced it, I'm not good looking, it would be nice to be wanted for my looks... just once; while women experience it from an early age and rather commonly), and a certain amount of male privilege (the fear of assault) mixed in.
But the reactions to this topic indicate otherwise. Women are defensive to the notion of being objectified sexually. Generally men seem to welcome it. There are other ways to objectify either gender, and I'm sure the results would be a mixed bag.
I do put a lot of stock into the "male privilege" argument. It is not nearly as common for a female to force herself on male. I think this goes a long way toward helping both sides understand the other.
Still, I think you'd be fighting an uphill battle to convince me or most others that men and women are not fundamentally wired differently on an emotional or mental level. I'd love to hear your thoughts, though.
But the reactions to this topic indicate otherwise. Women are defensive to the notion of being objectified sexually. Generally men seem to welcome it. There are other ways to objectify either gender, and I'm sure the results would be a mixed bag.
I do put a lot of stock into the "male privilege" argument. It is not nearly as common for a female to force herself on male. I think this goes a long way toward helping both sides understand the other.
Still, I think you'd be fighting an uphill battle to convince me or most others that men and women are not fundamentally wired differently on an emotional or mental level. I'd love to hear your thoughts, though.
I think we both genders are wired different in many aspects. Relatinships and sexuality are two of them. I said before that a lot of men would love to get hit on as much as a lot of women do and would not complain or be upset about it and a coue of ladies here got mad at me because they were under the impresion that I was suggesting that women should be happy that men would hit on them all the time.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,957,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll
But the reactions to this topic indicate otherwise. Women are defensive to the notion of being objectified sexually. Generally men seem to welcome it. There are other ways to objectify either gender, and I'm sure the results would be a mixed bag.
I do put a lot of stock into the "male privilege" argument. It is not nearly as common for a female to force herself on male. I think this goes a long way toward helping both sides understand the other.
Still, I think you'd be fighting an uphill battle to convince me or most others that men and women are not fundamentally wired differently on an emotional or mental level. I'd love to hear your thoughts, though.
But (the bolded) is not because of wiring, but because of fundamentally different experiences. Men rarely have it happen, if they have it at all happen. I never have. Women, all the women I know, have been having it happen since they were 13-15 and have it happen regularly. If men were objectified (we're talking physically/sexually) throughout their life and we lived in a matriarchy, while women were rarely or every objectified, I think you'd see the viewpoints flip flopped. It isn't wiring, it is cultural experiences and thinking the other side has it better.
I just don't see differences in wiring or views on sex, relationships, etc No difference at all.
Mind you, we self select our friends, so of course there is a inherent perception bias, but the notions (for example) that women are more interested in emotional connections and trust before wanting to have sex with a guy, or a guy is more interested in looks and care less than compatibility on other issues than a womaen, or the most perplexing to me... that men can separate sex and love easily while women cannot... sorry, I don't see it at all. I didn't in my early 20s, I don't know in my early 40s. Nothing I see in dating relationships, or FWBs, or hooking up because someone just wants to get laid (saw quite a bit of that on this past trip to VT) indicates to me women are any different than dudes, in general. Individuals are of course different, and those differences completely trump any possible differences between the genders.
Neither of those are really examples of objectification, though. they're just compliments. Objectifying someone is treating them like a thing that doesn't have thoughts or feelings or opinions. A woman in a bikini at a car show is objectified, because she's just there to look pretty like a decoration. If a woman told you to shut up and take your shirt off, because no one cares what you think, that might be more of an objectification.
Wouldn't bother me, but I'd wonder why, since I'm not exactly Mr. Buff.
"On any real basis" being something closer to the "boardroom" scenario described a few posts above. I definitely see the point you are making. Nobody fully knows how they'll react to something until it happens. With that said, physical objectifying is still objectifying. And it doesn't bother me, nor does it bother a lot of the guys I know.
It never happens to the vast majority of men, even most fairly good looking ones.
The reason we're (men) generally OK with the concept is because of how we are wired. We WANT a woman to use our bodies for their enjoyment. We want what we don't get.
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