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It was written using Joseph Campbell's definition of a hero. If you disagree with his definition (and I'm not saying anyone has to), then I can understand how you might disagree with anything that follows from that.
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Captain Sully is not a big. muscular man, yet he is a hero. The soldiers who stopped the terrorist in the train in Belgium yesterday were not muscle men...they kept calm, used their heads and acted in the way they were trained in order to save lives.
Yes, I think they are heroes too. But I'd also include all the people who invented/created all the tools Sully used to save those lives (like some I mentioned earlier... Thomas Edison, the collision-avoidance systems guy, etc.). Those people are "calm under pressure" as well, otherwise they never would've been able to do the hard work that they did. Lord only knows how much pressure Edison endured to get all those inventions out in one lifetime. But most of the people making those kinds of contributions don't get into the limelight (i.e., get the status). You disagreed with my comment that it's about status, but there are some in this thread who've said it's largely that. So I guess there are different opinions/experiences out there.
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My last ex gave me the sense of protection in little ways, that he most likely doesn't even know I noticed let alone left me "tingly" in a good way...one was on our second date, we were crossing a busy street in Atlantic City, and he just grabbed my hand and literally led me across the street by the hand..it was so decisive, firm, and that's the feeling it gave me "this man can take care of me and protect me".
Another thing he did, was once when we were making out on his couch, I felt for a second that I was going to roll off..he sensed that moment of fear in me, scooped his arm under me, pulled me close and said "Don't worry, I've got you". That is swoon-worthy stuff for me.
I appreciate that you have shared your personal experience. Of course I understand that if a guy's actions benefit you personally then that can be attractive. And I understand that if his actions benefit others in a way that gives him high visibility or some special status (like the soldiers you mentioned), that is attractive as well (as others have pointed out). The question I raised was more about whether actions that benefit others (the society, the community, etc.), not just once or twice but as a way of life and as a value system, causes attraction (for its own sake and not due to the income or status associated with it). You answer is part of the consensus, which appears to be, no, not in general. But some people say they have seen/experienced this. So, if it exists, but only rarely, then I might call it a "benevolence fetish."
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I think the problem is you are trying to apply concrete principles to something that is largely abstract and based on feelings, not facts.
I don't see a problem. I was just interested to know what people were experiencing. I appreciate that people have shared that.
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Originally Posted by orangeapple
This has been and is more attractive to women in a man than vice versa.
Men are the lucky ones who get judged based more on character than some other factors. Women mostly get judged based on looks and how well they stroke egos.
I might agree with you that this is how men and women are judged/portrayed in the media. But if we are looking at attraction between individual men and women in real life, then it's unclear to me that one gender is more superficial than the other, or that one gender looks at character more than the other. But maybe that's a question for another thread. I was just looking at one issue.
It was written using Joseph Campbell's definition of a hero. If you disagree with his definition (and I'm not saying anyone has to), then I can understand how you might disagree with anything that follows from that.
Yes, I think they are heroes too. But I'd also include all the people who invented/created all the tools Sully used to save those lives (like some I mentioned earlier... Thomas Edison, the collision-avoidance systems guy, etc.). Those people are "calm under pressure" as well, otherwise they never would've been able to do the hard work that they did. Lord only knows how much pressure Edison endured to get all those inventions out in one lifetime. But most of the people making those kinds of contributions don't get into the limelight (i.e., get the status). You disagreed with my comment that it's about status, but there are some in this thread who've said it's largely that. So I guess there are different opinions/experiences out there.
I appreciate that you have shared your personal experience. Of course I understand that if a guy's actions benefit you personally then that can be attractive. And I understand that if his actions benefit others in a way that gives him high visibility or some special status (like the soldiers you mentioned), that is attractive as well (as others have pointed out). The question I raised was more about whether actions that benefit others (the society, the community, etc.), not just once or twice but as a way of life and as a value system, causes attraction (for its own sake and not due to the income or status associated with it). You answer is part of the consensus, which appears to be, no, not in general. But some people say they have seen/experienced this. So, if it exists, but only rarely, then I might call it a "benevolence fetish."
I don't see a problem. I was just interested to know what people were experiencing. I appreciate that people have shared that.
I might agree with you that this is how men and women are judged/portrayed in the media. But if we are looking at attraction between individual men and women in real life, then it's unclear to me that one gender is more superficial than the other, or that one gender looks at character more than the other. But maybe that's a question for another thread. I was just looking at one issue.
I admit I did not read Campbell's definition, but I can tell you this is not nor was it ever considered "heroism" in the knight in shining armor sense to women, and THAT is the kind of heroism that has aroused women since the beginning of time, and again, what was designed to aroused us in our DNA. So no, not so much the people behind the scenes. I guess the confusion is you implied at one time you feel those men would have gotten attention from women, and that now it's just the modern times we live in that has lowered them on the romantic ladder...I would disagree with that, I don't think there was ever a time this was the case.
I don't think this is restricted to women though. The guys on the front lines get the parades and the accolades from both men and women, and always have. I have never seen a child in a Thomas Edison T-shirt saying he is his hero.
I guess the confusion is you implied at one time you feel those men would have gotten attention from women, and that now it's just the modern times we live in that has lowered them on the romantic ladder...I would disagree with that, I don't think there was ever a time this was the case.
No confusion, just curiosity. I was considering the possibility that in a past society with completely different social dynamics from our own (for example, a tribal culture with far more group-focused values), the male-female dynamic, including attraction, might have been one of the things that was different. But who knows, maybe you're right and it wasn't.
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I have never seen a child in a Thomas Edison T-shirt saying he is his hero.
Me neither. But I think I've seen some with Einstein. And probably Hulk Hogan. Haha.
While carrying a cat in a cage, a woman at the vet's, jump up and opened the door for me. She said, "Thank you for doing T.N.R." TNR is trap, neuter and release. It helps control the wild/feral cat population. I see it as improving the life of the feral cat and the colony they run with.
As part of a writer's group, we critic each other's work. My "Trapping" chapter has 2 of my main characters doing TNR. The 2 women that read the chapter liked it and said that they like the characters better for doing TNR.
Regarding my TNR work as a significant factor in women being attracted to me, no. It's only a small factor in the big picture.
Exactly. Merely working and paying taxes is contributing to society. My less an average single friends are involved in various volunteering and charity work....I don't see them beating off women with a stick. Women are actually beating them with an ugly stick.
One of my friends met her now husband at a volunteer event. They were working a booth together and boom sparks flew!
For me, positive social contribution adds bonus points. It shows me he belives in something bigger than himself, and that is a super positive trait for me. I don't knoe how this shifted over time, but when I had my "list" it was on it.
There have certainly been times in the past when communities were more important to people's lives. So the ability to contribute to the community had more impact on status and therefore was more important in the sexual market. If your village was plagued by wolves, and you were the guy who went out and killed the wolves, you were the man.
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Originally Posted by Hans63
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Was there ever a time, or a culture, where it was common (or commonly understood) that a man's ability to contribute something positive to the society or community was a significant factor in women being attracted to him?
I'm not talking about status-consciousness or interest in the man's financial condition. What I'm referring to is the man's positive contribution to society being, in and of itself, attractive to women (and not having to be famous to get that effect, as that may also be a kind of status-chasing).
Of course, there may be cases where people experience this currently. What I'm asking is whether there was ever a time when this was commonplace. If so, when/where was that? Personally, I haven't seen any indication that this is common nowadays, at least not here in modern US culture.
I'm wondering whether this is related to old-fashioned values, or maybe something about "tribal instinct," that may have been the norm at some time in the past. Has this changed over time?
Or maybe it never was particularly common, in any culture?
There have certainly been times in the past when communities were more important to people's lives. So the ability to contribute to the community had more impact on status and therefore was more important in the sexual market. If your village was plagued by wolves, and you were the guy who went out and killed the wolves, you were the man.
Brilliant response.
Women are primarily attracted to looks and status. In the values of today's world, positive contributions will not add to your status.
Things like your sociability, job (in some cases), looks (which, while important on their own, also add to status), and outward display of wealth will attract far more women than volunteering at an animal shelter on weekends.
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Cat women like me ... a little
