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Here are my tips:
1. Never offer a ride to a woman you don't know. W are trained to be suspicious of unknown men
2. Don't ask to walk me home on a first meet - that will pretty much never happen unless I have known you forever and it is our first "date"
3. We are americans,,trained to talk about work. Your work is depressing. You need a cadre of topics to not talk about your job. Derail and ask about her
Now actual date logistics?
I don't believe in pickup artists, but there is one point I 100% agreed with: physical contact.
Part of building attraction is related to touch. This doesn't mean hugging people or any of that. You need to build up the connection to get there. Odds are about 90% i will feel no attraction until there has been some innocuous physical contact. Even if we have plenty to talk about and connect.
Here are 3 easy steps on a coffee date. I assume you can read basic body language.
1. 2 handed handshake: as you are shaking her hand, put you other hand on her forehand/top of wrist as you greet. This is generally fine for anyone and feels warmer than a regular handshake.
2. Touch her shoulder lightly for emphasis during a conversation point
3. Touch her forearm lightly for emphasis during the outing
Each of these 3 minor moves will give both of you a sense if there is chemistry. If she is on the touchy end, you'll get a hug at the end of the date! And you will have built more attraction.
I personally have a prefeence for chivalry, so i am judging you on offering to get me coffee, grabbing a glass of water for me and opening doors. As much as I hate to sdmit it, but for me men who don't open doors los points. Its part of the making an effort. I assume you also wear a real outfit on your date as well? Look like you tried? Clean shoes, non-wrinkled clothing, tateful accesories a needed?
Good luck, and do not get to attached before a first meet.
You have to make it clear to the women that the friend zone is unacceptable. There's one choice, you as a boyfriend/sex partner. You must be an assertive man.
For a little context I just went on my third first date in just as many months and am feeling pretty dejected. At this point it feels like being "friendzoned" would be a massive step up. The first two ended essentially with them saying, "Yeah, you're a nice enough guy, but I never want to see you again." And it looks like the third one will end the same way.
Really, at least being friendzoned means you're invested time and interests in the person leads to...something. With these rejections happening after first dates it's like going from, "Yeah, this person is awesome and I could spend the rest of my life with her" to, "Well, she thinks I'm gross and never wants to see me again." This is incredibly draining especially when it keeps happening. Plus, when you actually do still think that person is awesome and see the validity in her rejecting you.
As for how this one went the girl and I were talking a lot before the date. Much more than the first two I went on. I first sent her a message last month on a dating website. She suggested we meet up and gave me her phone number first, which I thought was great because I've always had to do that stuff first. For the last week we've been texting nearly every day for hours at a time. Better yet, she would often send me texts first and it seemed like she was very interested in me. She even sent me a "Good morning!" text today, which I thought was a nice touch.
As for how the actual date went...well probably not great.
We texted earlier in the day and she let me know she'd be shopping until 5:00 p.m. when we were due to meet up for coffee. Yes, it was a coffee shop date since she insisted. I let her know I'll have my car and offered to give her a ride back in case she has a lot of stuff to carry since she was using public transit/walking. She doesn't actually accept this, but gives me some tips on the logistics and stuff of where to park so I figure she appreciated this nice gesture.
We ended up meeting half an hour earlier than scheduled when she let me know she was done with shopping, but didn't have time to get home so we might as well just meet. I mention I'm outside the coffee shop and I look just like my profile pic. She says she has no idea what I look like because she probably hadn't seen my profile for weeks. This kind of bothered me since I figure it makes me more of a concept to her and everything we'd been building up to that point was based on me being a concept rather than a real person. Once she met the real person if she thought I was ugly or whatever she could easily just drop me since she'd just be leaving behind a concept.
As for the actual date she doesn't seem displeased to first meet me and shakes my hand. I offer to pay for her coffee, but she turns my offer down. We talked for about an hour until the coffee shop announced they were closing in 15 minutes.
Throughout the date we get along well enough and there's a lot less awkward silence then on the first two. However, it still has a re-occurring problem I've had on dates. All the women I've dated recently seem to like that I'm a mental health counselor and either also work in the field or have some connection to it. So the topics we end up really getting into are heavy and often depressing stuff, which isn't great dating material. I'd like to focus on fun stuff, but whenever I try to switch to that they seem disinterested. So instead, they're left focusing on the more lively yet depressing discussions. In turn I think girls have the memory of me being something along the lines of, "That guy? Who is that? Oh yeah, he's the one I almost cried in front of when talking about my grandmother's Alzheimers. Yeah, I don' want to feel like that again, I don't want to see him again."
Anyway, after the coffee shop she then suggests going for a walk. I suggests we could walk around for a bit and then I could drive her home. She turns down the offer and says she could walk. After she had already been out shopping all day and saying she was tired with two bags of stuff.
I then offer to at least walk her home. Instead she leads me on an aimless walk of the nearby area. This isn't that weird as she mentioned before she really liked to walk around and get lost places. I also offer to carry her bags during the walk, but she won't let me do that either. After about an hour of talking and walking we end up near the same coffee shop again. I point out that she must be tired and I offer to drive her home again. She turns me down again and we shake hands, with her walking the other direction. She doesn't even bother to walk me to my car or even appear interested to see that I in fact even had a car and just wasn't making it up.
I didn't even bother trying to go in for a first kiss or anything. For a little context my teeth are a little screwed up, which isn't immediately apparent from my dating profiles. I'm having them fixed soon, but am really self-conscious about them. Most people don't even appear to notice, but I'd imagine when you're talking with someone for 2 hours and thinking they at least might try to kiss you, you'd notice. I'm thinking this is more of a deal breaker than I'd ever thought it'd be, but I don't really consider it catfishing. After all you want to put out the best you possible there. Even if I'm otherwise alright looking I don't think a headline like, "Dude with rotten teeth wants a date" would attract a lot of desirable women.
So, the impression I'm left with is that she thought so little of me that instead of letting me give her a 5-10 ride to her place, she'd rather walk a full hour or so to her place. After she said she was tired and is a single woman walking alone in the city at night with bags full of stuff.
I think I'll try to salvage it as best I can by sending her a text tomorrow saying I had a nice time and offering to meet up again. However, I did this with my last date and got a quick text back saying she had a nice time too, but only wanted to, "date people close by." I lived a grand total of 7 miles away so I was hardly in Alaska. I'm expecting the exact same thing to happen this time. Maybe some variation on the bullcrap reason for cutting me off, but the same result. Which really sucks and is so emotionally draining because like I said I think we got along great texting and it's not like that first date was a complete disaster. It's not like she made up an excuse and left 15 minutes into it or something. I still think she's awesome and would totally date her again.
Still, the end result for me is the same. Probably eating copious amounts of ice cream and crying myself to sleep. Only slightly exaggerating here.
Like I said, it's just tough. When you put in all this time with a person and know little odd things about them like how they spent six years working in a museum in Connecticut. Then instead of at least being friends all you're left with is, "This person thinks I'm gross and didn't even respect me enough to tell me the truth."
IDK, I think I'm going to take a break from dating for a while, get in slightly better shape, get my teeth fixed (a work in progress), and most importantly build my self-confidence back up. After all, I'm still pretty awesome. Then I'll get back to the dating scene.
If all else fails I could also try Homer Simpsons' six simple words of advice, "I'm not gay, but I'll learn."
Anyway: Comments, suggestions, ideas? Fire away!
Couple of things: She was right in not investing anything prior to meeting. There is no potential before meeting, none. I don't care how much you've talked (which was much too much, I don't care who initiated it). I too accept dates and talk to people and then forget them until meeting, and that is what you should be doing. While you were talking to this girl and planning to meet her, you should have still been trying to meet new girls. It is a numbers game.
I can see how talk about your work could be depressing, you have to just change the subject. If they think nothing you have to say is interesting outside of work, that is a problem and maybe you need more interests, or record yourself telling a story and make sure you don't drone on or anything like that. One sure bet is to move the topic to her, and ask her questions.
As an aside though, I think she knew she didn't feel chemistry on sight, or she would have let you pay for her coffee. It very well may be your teeth, and if you want to avoid this, I would suggest smiling in a picture so they know what they are getting ahead of time, it's really no more fair not to let them know than a fat person who only has a pic from the neck up. Get your teeth fixed if you are really serious about getting a girl, though.
About the offers to drive/walk her home, no woman in her right mind is going to let you know where she lives, you are a stranger.
Here are my tips:
1. Never offer a ride to a woman you don't know. W are trained to be suspicious of unknown men
2. Don't ask to walk me home on a first meet - that will pretty much never happen unless I have known you forever and it is our first "date"
3. We are americans,,trained to talk about work. Your work is depressing. You need a cadre of topics to not talk about your job. Derail and ask about her
Now actual date logistics?
I don't believe in pickup artists, but there is one point I 100% agreed with: physical contact.
Part of building attraction is related to touch. This doesn't mean hugging people or any of that. You need to build up the connection to get there. Odds are about 90% i will feel no attraction until there has been some innocuous physical contact. Even if we have plenty to talk about and connect.
Here are 3 easy steps on a coffee date. I assume you can read basic body language.
1. 2 handed handshake: as you are shaking her hand, put you other hand on her forehand/top of wrist as you greet. This is generally fine for anyone and feels warmer than a regular handshake.
2. Touch her shoulder lightly for emphasis during a conversation point
3. Touch her forearm lightly for emphasis during the outing
Each of these 3 minor moves will give both of you a sense if there is chemistry. If she is on the touchy end, you'll get a hug at the end of the date! And you will have built more attraction.
I personally have a prefeence for chivalry, so i am judging you on offering to get me coffee, grabbing a glass of water for me and opening doors. As much as I hate to sdmit it, but for me men who don't open doors los points. Its part of the making an effort. I assume you also wear a real outfit on your date as well? Look like you tried? Clean shoes, non-wrinkled clothing, tateful accesories a needed?
Good luck, and do not get to attached before a first meet.
Yeah, I think my outfits are usually pretty good. Since it was like a summer day Saturday I wore a fancy polo shirt with dress pants and shoes. Nothing wrinkled or dirty lol. I'll probably wear a dress shirt and undershirt when the weather gets a little colder. The reason is I sweat a lot in warm weather so I can't help, but thinking the polo was a good choice for Saturday. Better than a sweat drenched dress shirt anyway.
I was curious what you mean by accessories exactly? I don't wear a watch, but have a decent looking cell phone and wallet.
As for a follow-up on how things went...well not so good. I tried to reach her Sunday in the late afternoon. Previously she had gotten back to me usually within minutes around this time. Now? Well, let's just say if I wanted to still wait for a response I'd probably be waiting a very long time.
Kind of makes me feel less bad actually. I think it's a bad sign of character in general to just give someone the cold shoulder like that. I know I generally don't even when it may make things easier for me. Heck, after how Saturday went I didn't even want to try to follow-up with her, but I did if for no other reason than it was the polite thing to do.
Oh well, I guess it wasn't so bad and onto the next one. Like I mentioned there was less awkward silence on this one so maybe there is some improvement on my part even if it is (very) minor. Also, I think we had a difference of opinion on plenty that could've led to problems later.
It just kind of initially sucked since I invested so much time into this one and my expectations were so high. As someone mentioned it's best to ask to meet in the first three messages. I usually ask within the first 3-5 messages. However, she took the initiative here and from there things strayed heavily from how I usually go about online dating.
I actually REALLY hate coffee dates in general and tried to switch the venue before the date. However, she wasn't having it. I probably should have abandoned further interest from there, which kind of goes back to the self-confidence issue.
To end on a side note, I made a dental appointment with my new dentist for the soonest appointment they had. Still, a month away (not by choice, that's just the soonest they had), but at least I'm working on it
Accessories? Depends on the person and their style. For some it is a watch, shoes, coat, belt, belt buckle, socks, bag. I am a shoe girl so I totally notice what shoes you are wearing. It could be how you wear the dress shirt. How does it fit? Slim fit or baggy. If you roll sleeves, are the even? Where does it end.
For example, stylish hipsters where certain types of shoes. With or without socks. They have a certain toe box or color combo.
I am not surprised on the outcome in the date.
When setting expectations, keep them low. Having a pleasant time. Anything beyond is icing on the cake.
Don't beat yourself up. All us men have been there, and I'd wager me more than most . Give yourself permission to make mistakes and to learn. In short, your station in life as a man is to lead, and with this situation, I see many instances to work on that. However, with all of what is said below, 80%+ chance is you didn't blow it though action, so rest easy. When a girl likes a guy she will help him along and will otherwise forgive a decent amount of less-than-smooth behavior.
1.) Men lead by socially acting like men (= not letting themselves be treated like a girl friend with bunches of idle chitchat over text). There was way too much convo before the date. Talking tons with a guy early on can decrease a woman's attraction level because it's feminine. A bit is okay but after a few messages you should have said something along the lines of, "hey, it's great getting to know you but let's wait till we meet in person to continue this great convo." IME women almost always respond well to this so don't have fear that it's a buzzkill.
2.) Men lead by asking her out first. Women are attracted to men that lead. From what you've written it's hard to say what prompted her to ask you out - too many messages in the beginning? In the online dating world on your third message you should be asking her out. I will say I've had situations whereby the woman asks me out on her first message, so that's not on you, but usually that doesn't end well IME because she's bored, wants attention and is otherwise not really interested romantically.
3.) Men lead by going on actual dates with women they're romantically interested in (and early evening coffee dates is NOT that). Plus per #2, you need to be asking her out first. Either way you should have declined this and instead suggested an actual date, such as drinks and HH at night (or, if/when you ask her out first, that should be your suggestion).
4.) Men lead by not repeating themselves (even if it's by offering to be a gentlemen four or more times). Badgering her to drive her or walk her home was way too much. Once was enough, at the very beginning, as you're making plans. If she declines, and the date goes well, it'd probably be okay if she's all loaded up with shopping bags or the like, to ask again at the very end. Either way this came off as needy and eager which can decrease a woman's attraction for a man.
5.) Men lead by having good personal health and physicality. Teeth are usually a huge thing for women. You can't hide 'em, and the more you try the more you call attention to 'em. You've already recognized you have some major deficits here and are making amends but it's going to be a hindrance if things truly are not good. Not much to do here other than to get things fixed ASAP.
6.) Men lead by investing their energy wisely (= not falling for a girl after only one date). Sure it's normal to be a bit disappointed if a first date doesn't go well but you can't let it turn your world on its ear. That it has says there is some soul searching to do, and it's usually much larger than that particular girl. Seems you're a bit down about some aspects of your life but it also seems that you're making amends, which is good.
7.) Men lead by doing what is in their best interest without waiting for permission or approval and otherwise men act mostly free from the fear of negative consequences. Tomorrow evening you need to call (NOT TEXT, stop that!). If she answers, introduce yourself, ask her how her day went. If the convo flows freely let it go on, but only for a minute or two. Next, state that you had a great time, that you'd like to see her again, and ask her for availability for xxxx date idea (have this planned out!). If she doesn't pick up, leave a voicemail (NOT TEXT) to this effect.
8.) Men lead by only dating women that show a lot of receptive enthusiasm. Per #7, the bogey is for her to either accept if she answers or accept within ~24 hours if you left voicemail. Any other deviation should be an automatic DQ. Wish her well, never give her another second of your time, and then spend that time looking for a woman that is receptively enthusiastic.
This post has a bunch of assumptions and bull.
I don't mind idle chitchat.
I'm fine with leading and don't necessarily always need a man to lead.
Coffee dates are safe because you never know what kind of creeps you're going to meet. If a man insisted I go somewhere else on a first date I would not go out with him. So good on you, OP, for doing what she wanted. You made the right decision.
I don't think that can be summed up. It varies way too much. I think what I wear tends to be appropriate and it fits the occasion. From what I've seen others wear I don't think I stick out in a bad way or anything.
They're way too formal and can almost feel like a job interview. Honestly, even a bars better (especially a quiet one). Activities I find to be even better though.
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. Give yourself permission to make mistakes and to learn. In short, your station in life as a man is to lead, and with this situation, I see many instances to work on that. However, with all of what is said below, 80%+ chance is you didn't blow it though action, so rest easy. When a girl likes a guy she will help him along and will otherwise forgive a decent amount of less-than-smooth behavior.
