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I'm not saying STEM is more useful but there are many misconceptios on STEM education.
Not unlike the misconceptions about liberal arts *cough* basket weaving *cough*
Can you really not see how people might not agree that you "taking a couple of courses" in liberal arts makes you educated on the subject? That, perhaps, someone with a political science degree might laugh at your claim that you "can read political science books"?
Without being a STEM major people can still read STEM focused books and work in STEM careers, heck, half the programmers I know weren't STEM majors. So that really is irrelevant, and its completely besides the point.
Yes.
There seem to be some STEM graduates who assume that liberal arts graduates are intellectually incapable of excelling in STEM. Wrong. I, for example, always took advanced math and science classes throughout high school, for which I achieved good grades. But, though there ARE science fields I would have enjoyed (and, truthfully, I've discovered more of them as I've gotten older), I chose to pursue a field for which a liberal arts education was best. I'm never going to become rich, but I've always really enjoyed what I do.
Without being a STEM major people can still read STEM focused books and work in STEM careers, heck, half the programmers I know weren't STEM majors. So that really is irrelevant, and its completely besides the point.
Yep. I've dated a few men who are self-taught software developers who dropped out of college. My husband dropped out of his engineering program, and he's very STEM-minded, but also sees immense value in the humanities and social sciences. A lot of what he's learned and acquired is through self-studies and just having an aptitude for these disciplines. He can talk about elementary logic, but also wax lyrical about historical romance and ancient history. And he'd have no problem pursuing tech jobs without a formal STEM education if he were inclined toward these professions.
I read several fascinating STEM books before returning to school for my liberal arts degree. Can I work in a STEM field? No, but I don't want to. Not everyone wants seeks these professions, and they shouldn't, because then there'd be far too many job seekers than there are open positions.
Reminds me of when my ex-husband was leaving the military and had a hard time finding work despite working in a critical intelligence field. With the influx of servicemembers leaving the military and DoD budget cuts, there were fewer intel jobs and a lot of veterans applying for these jobs. What was once a very lucrative field, especially during the wars, was now a field facing lay offs and contractors unable to renew contracts. Three years before there were a lot of $150-200k firm intel job offers. A lot of his buddies boasted about having firm job offers and bonuses just a couple years before he got out.
There seem to be some STEM graduates who assume that liberal arts graduates are intellectually incapable of excelling in STEM. Wrong. I, for example, always took advanced math and science classes throughout high school, for which I achieved good grades. But, though there ARE science fields I would have enjoyed (and, truthfully, I've discovered more of them as I've gotten older), I chose to pursue a field for which a liberal arts education was best. I'm never going to become rich, but I've always really enjoyed what I do.
One of the best software engineers I know was a music major as an undergrad. It's the same basic set of aptitudes. Mozart probably would have written some great iPhone apps.
A STEM degree doesn't mean you're any good at your job. Most engineers I know aren't particularly strong. Most truly gifted people tend to pick something that pays better. In 1980, a big chunk of them picked medical school. More recently, they all wanted to be investment bankers.
Circling back on the original post in this thread:
Most bright, engaged college educated women are going to tell you they're looking for a bright, engaged college educated guy as their ideal match for a long term relationship. Some of it is basic compatibility. Some of it is the harsh 21st century economic reality where most economically successful households have two college educated people with good jobs. Only about 6% of wage earners max out their Social Security at $118,500 but 5% household income is about $185K. That's dual income where both have very good jobs. That doesn't mean they're going to go out and pick some emotionally stunted mutant simply because they have a college degree and a good job. The degree and the job are all part of the package.
Yep. I've dated a few men who are self-taught software developers who dropped out of college. My husband dropped out of his engineering program, and he's very STEM-minded, but also sees immense value in the humanities and social sciences. A lot of what he's learned and acquired is through self-studies and just having an aptitude for these disciplines. He can talk about elementary logic, but also wax lyrical about historical romance and ancient history. And he'd have no problem pursuing tech jobs without a formal STEM education if he were inclined toward these professions.
I read several fascinating STEM books before returning to school for my liberal arts degree. Can I work in a STEM field? No, but I don't want to. Not everyone wants seeks these professions, and they shouldn't, because then there'd be far too many job seekers than there are open positions.
Reminds me of when my ex-husband was leaving the military and had a hard time finding work despite working in a critical intelligence field. With the influx of servicemembers leaving the military and DoD budget cuts, there were fewer intel jobs and a lot of veterans applying for these jobs. What was once a very lucrative field, especially during the wars, was now a field facing lay offs and contractors unable to renew contracts. Three years before there were a lot of $150-200k firm intel job offers. A lot of his buddies boasted about having firm job offers and bonuses just a couple years before he got out.
STEM isn't all about employment and money making. There are amateur mathematicians, amateur programmers doing it for fun. Some other people are simply interested in how things work, out of curiosity.
As I said before, computer science is NOT programming. Some true computer scientists do not program that much, and they don't work for big technology companies. Many brilliant stem professionals are underpaid, but that doesn't justify anti STEM sentiments.
I didn't bring up employment, salary or the difficulty of courses. Barely getting a degree in any field is pretty easy, being exceptional is always hard.
My current job has absolutely nothing to do with my undergrad major.
We're not saying it is, but there are *many* people who frame STEM in this light, that it is "better" and more practical for career/employment reasons. Some of us know that isn't always the case, and it doesn't put an end to the oft-repeated "liberal arts is useless" mumbo-jumbo.
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There are amateur mathematicians, amateur programmers doing it for fun. Some other people are simply interested in how things work, out of curiosity.
Which has what to do with the inherent value of non-STEM education? A lot of us are challenging the sentiment that liberal arts degrees are useless. We also recognize there are many disciplines in STEM, and people pursue STEM for a variety of reasons, just like liberal arts and social sciences.
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As I said before, computer science is NOT programming. Some true computer scientists do not program that much, and they don't work for big technology companies. Many brilliant stem professionals are underpaid, but that doesn't justify anti STEM sentiments.
Where do you see anti-STEM sentiments? Challenging anti-liberal arts sentiments (e.g., "underwater basket weaving" and "It's impractical for today's workforce.") is not being anti-STEM. Many have said there's immense value in STEM fields, admire and appreciate them, just as we appreciate other disciplines outside STEM. If you're seeing anti-STEM sentiments then you're projecting.
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I didn't bring up employment, salary or the difficulty of courses. Barely getting a degree in any field is pretty easy, being exceptional is always hard.
My current job has absolutely nothing to do with my undergrad major.
Many of us are addressing the anti-liberal arts sentiment expressed earlier in the thread.
I guess I started a fuss with my basket weaving comment, LOL. When you stand back and look at the big picture all this stuff is sorta ying and yang at the end of the day. All types and branches of education have value. This stuff all pulls together at some point. STEM people aren't the be all end all and English or Poli Sci people aren't either. I clearly said that I've back down from my poo poo ing liberal arts being degree not be useful. I even said it in the same post.
A while back through work they sent us to training to help to understand and to better communicate with people and it was a course called "colors" and the basic premise is that people can be classified into four basic groupings or a combo of grouping but a person can have a strong leaning toward a certain type. This is a gross generalization here but the course taught you have to frame your thinking when you suspect that a person has a stronger tendency to one type. The types were basically this, the green group, these are the STEM types, the analytical thinkers, Blue, these were the more humanitarian, feeling, artsy HR people types, Orange, these were generally the big picture thinkers, the go getters, not worrying about the details types, Gold, these were the detail types, think accountants and overall responsible take care of business types. People can fit into all of these boxes but most people had stronger leaning toward one type.
I'm really glossing over the details but the idea was that if say you wanted to tackle a problem such as climbing a massive hill, each group of people had valid and useful input to solving the problem as in no one group is necessarily better than the other for every situation.
I'm probably not explaining it well, but that course and how they explained various scenarios of how you have to work as a team and to appreciate others input is when I put down my STEM is the only thing that matters thinking.
STEM isn't all about employment and money making. There are amateur mathematicians, amateur programmers doing it for fun. Some other people are simply interested in how things work, out of curiosity.
As I said before, computer science is NOT programming. Some true computer scientists do not program that much, and they don't work for big technology companies. Many brilliant stem professionals are underpaid, but that doesn't justify anti STEM sentiments.
I didn't bring up employment, salary or the difficulty of courses. Barely getting a degree in any field is pretty easy, being exceptional is always hard.
My current job has absolutely nothing to do with my undergrad major.
So, what's the point of the thread you started?
Are you asking in order to argue with people, or are you willing to accept what they say at face value?
I am a woman who graduated, with honors, from a prestigious liberal arts college. That someone, anyone, says "gee, I took a couple of English courses in *whatever* college, so I obviously have the equivalent education that you have", is sheer idiocy in my book, and that attitude, for me, is an absolute deal-breaker.
I don't "require" a prospective partner to have a certain amount of formal education. What I do require, however, is a respect for the education that I have. And, no, someone generally taking English or poli sci courses, and "being able to read books", doesn't cut it.
I guess I started a fuss with my basket weaving comment, LOL. When you stand back and look at the big picture all this stuff is sorta ying and yang at the end of the day. All types and branches of education have value. This stuff all pulls together at some point. STEM people aren't the be all end all and English or Poli Sci people aren't either. I clearly said that I've back down from my poo poo ing liberal arts being degree not be useful. I even said it in the same post.
A while back through work they sent us to training to help to understand and to better communicate with people and it was a course called "colors" and the basic premise is that people can be classified into four basic groupings or a combo of grouping but a person can have a strong leaning toward a certain type. This is a gross generalization here but the course taught you have to frame your thinking when you suspect that a person has a stronger tendency to one type. The types were basically this, the green group, these are the STEM types, the analytical thinkers, Blue, these were the more humanitarian, feeling, artsy HR people types, Orange, these were generally the big picture thinkers, the go getters, not worrying about the details types, Gold, these were the detail types, think accountants and overall responsible take care of business types. People can fit into all of these boxes but most people had stronger leaning toward one type.
I'm really glossing over the details but the idea was that if say you wanted to tackle a problem such as climbing a massive hill, each group of people had valid and useful input to solving the problem as in no one group is necessarily better than the other for every situation.
I'm probably not explaining it well, but that course and how they explained various scenarios of how you have to work as a team and to appreciate others input is when I put down my STEM is the only thing that matters thinking.
Just my 2 cents.
It wasn't you, Chow. It was a different poster who made the comment. I know you stated you used to feel that way, but you recognize and appreciate different forms of education, however it's achieved. But of course there will always be people who feel very strongly about education/intellectual curiosity and the type of education or choice of discipline.
It wasn't you, Chow. It was a different poster who made the comment. I know you stated you used to feel that way, but you recognize and appreciate different forms of education, however it's achieved. But of course there will always be people who feel very strongly about education/intellectual curiosity and the type of education or choice of discipline.
That's good it wasn't' me.
I was making a concerted effort to not offend, at least in this particular case. I guess I have a tendency to make some people here angry.
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