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Old 02-15-2018, 02:04 PM
 
3,271 posts, read 2,180,151 times
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:06 PM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,923,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homina12 View Post

Which is why when I notice that the guys we interact with here often get angrier and nastier over time, I wonder?

I'm sorry, but purely from a psych + human nature perspective, I disagree.

People who want to have a reason to vent their anger will actively pursue support for/rationalizations for their behavior.

Although I'd bet my last breath that you, hom, are in NO way an abuser (ever) I do feel the above quote is common rationale for some people to latch on to in order to abuse. ("If only she hadn't riled me up, I'd never have had to hurt her. If only she'd listened to my verbal abuse instead of telling me reality, and instead had hugged me for my verbal abuse, I'd NEVER have had to 'turn bad.'")

In this way, finding lots of support for very negative views of, say (for the purpose of this discussion) women absolutely can give a few "on the edge" individuals that last bit of support they've been seeking to do something harmful. And that doesn't have to be to 17 students. It can be individually, hurting women in their spheres. It can be abuse that never makes the news...except collectively, as a cold, impersonal statistic.

Hom, if you don't feel "we're" making an impact, you can always choose not to say anything, but this is a discussion forum, and I'm not about to stop discussing out of fear of making things somehow worse regarding a percentage's sincere hatred of women. No way. I'm speaking out. It is a choice for you, and for me. And for them. But me? I'm saying something.
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,328 posts, read 14,547,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zentropa View Post
Many of these virgins (and killers) also seem to be on the spectrum, diagnosed or undiagnosed. I think there needs to be greater effort to identify these kids earlier so they can learn coping mechanisms and appropriate social behavior so they can get what they want/need out of life.
Can we just cut to the chase, too, and say that asking what others did to hurt their feelings and drive them to kill a bunch of people, is just another piece of a victim blaming mindset? Please? It's that "just world fallacy" BS. "Society must have punished this person beyond tolerance and drove him to lash out." Um...nah. Not really buying that.

But it is happening more often.

Just thought a thought. There was a thing a friend posted on social media recently talking about how hard it is to grow up a boy in the school systems of today. They are overdiagnosed, misdiagnosed, medicated, told that all of the urges and behaviors natural to being a male are unacceptable and must be bottled up...they're held to the standards of behavior where girls have set the bar, and when they fail, they are being treated not as boys, but as dysfunctional girls. And girls are now outperforming them academically, going to college more than they are, and so on. Hm... OK, as a mother of 2 sons, I will admit that when a teacher tried to (wrongly) diagnose my oldest, all of 2 weeks into kindergarten, as being "on the spectrum" I protested. Found out later that the school got funding for putting kids into the special programs. Uh huh. He's a stubborn lil bugger but he isn't on the spectrum. He's pretty well adjusted nowadays. I do think that there is too little ability for them to meet the various needs of various students in public schools.

I think that boys need to be taught self regulation as much as self control. Not just "sit quiet and don't be disruptive!" but emotional intelligence. So you have a feeling that is making you want to behave a certain way? How do you go through a process of recognizing the feeling, thinking about it and understanding it, regulating yourself in a healthy way such as eating if you have low blood sugar, or maybe needing to take a break and go jog around a track for a minute? We aren't teaching self awareness. We're just telling boys (and girls) to bottle it all up. Not healthy coping, but suppression, which does not always work.
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:12 PM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,923,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Can we just cut to the chase, too, and say that asking what others did to hurt their feelings and drive them to kill a bunch of people, is just another piece of a victim blaming mindset? Please?
We sure can.

This type of thinking is dangerous. It just is, period.

And FTR, my two younger boys ARE on the spectrum. One is, in addition, intellectually delayed. They ARE NOT allowed to act aggressively toward other people due to this. Period. Nor are they allowed to blame society or anybody else for THEIR OWN feelings. They deal with their own feelings, with our (my husband's and my) help. They have to own their own stuff, and that's it. Gently and with support, but they have to own it. Everybody does! Autistic or not.

One of the earliest "this is how to treat others" things I taught them, because with some (not all) autistic people, it's hard to know how and when to touch, was no means no. Period. Easy enough to do even with OTS children: "Would YOU want to be pushed to accept someone else's touch if it didn't make you feel good?" Repeat as necessary. Begin early, as with any child, OTS or not.

My middle child - 14 years old, operatively/functionally approximately 6 years old - still needs reminding on occasion of how to not be intrusive to others. So we instill that and it has consequences. Every time. Period. End of story. That's what living in a society entails. If he wants to hug too hard and the other person doesn't want that it isn't that other person's "fault." That person owes him no explanation. That person has rights just as he has rights. Can't ever agree? Then don't be friends. Find different friends.

If he "wants" someone to behave in a certain way, but that person has his/her own (presumably non-harmful) ideas instead, that's fine. No questions asked, no "But WHY won't that person do what I want?" Because...and that's it! For everybody. No "now I can be furious for that person for not lock-stepping in what I want. I'd be so happy if only people did...what...I...want."

Personal responsibility. And that's it.
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:56 PM
 
10,341 posts, read 5,842,316 times
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A scary number of parents can't even tell something's gone wrong with their child, as something is abnormal about the parents. I guess neighbors and schools need to "start calling the cops repeatedly", as Trump has just advised.


(And thanks jobster! I actually laughed at that)
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:56 PM
 
2,664 posts, read 2,079,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Hmmm.

So, for all the many many many women who are lied to in order to put out, then are dumped and literally heartbroken and perhaps left with an STD, you know what...that's a source of frustration too, since we're talking about frustrations. And it's as old as time. For many cultures and generations, a woman winding up pregnant and unmarried based on such lies and trickery might be an outcast. Heck, in some cases and time periods, she might literally be killed.
Hmmm. I prefer not to argue about history. Thousand of men also died of diseases, were killed in the wars, etc.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Today, probably not, certainly in the U.S. But being lied to, her body used and then thrown away and her heart broken...oh geez, that probably only happens a few thousand times a day in any given culture.
I am sorry, are you describing sex as men using women's bodies? We are talking about present, right? You know that some women enjoy sex as well?




Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
So...it's understandable if those women unleash a spray of bullets at a school?

Probably not. Right?

I mean how often do you hear of something like that happening?

Really, I am not buying the "we should all be understanding of men killing strangers because not getting laid is frustrating" argument.

Indeed, it's...well...super, super scary that anyone WOULD argue such a thing. I am just being real here.

If you are replying to me, I did not exactly say that. I said that being an awkward, unpopular teenager and young adult, I understand the profound frustration, unhappiness and disappointment these guys face every day. All I hear from a lot of the female man haters here is contempt.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
29,700 posts, read 34,240,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
I think that boys need to be taught self regulation as much as self control. Not just "sit quiet and don't be disruptive!" but emotional intelligence. So you have a feeling that is making you want to behave a certain way? How do you go through a process of recognizing the feeling, thinking about it and understanding it, regulating yourself in a healthy way such as eating if you have low blood sugar, or maybe needing to take a break and go jog around a track for a minute? We aren't teaching self awareness. We're just telling boys (and girls) to bottle it all up. Not healthy coping, but suppression, which does not always work.
This is a great point, but I wonder what's different between now and in the past? Because now there's at least an awareness that it's okay for boys and young men to have and express feelings; every school has a counselor, etc. Back when "boys don't cry" was the rule of law, there weren't these kind of systematic violent outbursts (or were there, but they were different?)
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:03 PM
 
Location: In the bee-loud glade
5,573 posts, read 3,334,079 times
Reputation: 12295
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
I'm sorry, but purely from a psych + human nature perspective, I disagree.

People who want to have a reason to vent their anger will actively pursue support for/rationalizations for their behavior.

Although I'd bet my last breath that you, hom, are in NO way an abuser (ever) I do feel the above quote is common rationale for some people to latch on to in order to abuse. ("If only she hadn't riled me up, I'd never have had to hurt her. If only she'd listened to my verbal abuse instead of telling me reality, and instead had hugged me for my verbal abuse, I'd NEVER have had to 'turn bad.'")

In this way, finding lots of support for very negative views of, say (for the purpose of this discussion) women absolutely can give a few "on the edge" individuals that last bit of support they've been seeking to do something harmful. And that doesn't have to be to 17 students. It can be individually, hurting women in their spheres. It can be abuse that never makes the news...except collectively, as a cold, impersonal statistic.

Hom, if you don't feel "we're" making an impact, you can always choose not to say anything, but this is a discussion forum, and I'm not about to stop discussing out of fear of making things somehow worse regarding a percentage's sincere hatred of women. No way. I'm speaking out. It is a choice for you, and for me. And for them. But me? I'm saying something.
But we're not their victims, except to the extent that what they spew here is offensive. Their victims, and I'm talking now of people whose victims are mistreated as opposed to killed, are the people they interact with out in the world. When those middle ground men come here for an outlet and get something else, I think we may be contributing to the pain their victims endure.

And that's in response to the more tragic direction this conversation has migrated today. Most of the time we appear to just irritate these guys, which is probably harmless in most cases. Maybe a missed opportunity at times.

And regarding psych + human nature, sometimes people want to be heard. As a woman, have you never had a man offer you solutions, perhaps with a small dose of condescension, when what you wanted was to be heard? That's kind of what we do. I'm convinced that some of the men who come here complaining about their dating life are looking to be heard. No one is obligated to listen, especially when their complaints are nasty, but I choose to try to.

And I'm on my soapbox because I make my living advocating for people with disabilities. That's not some accident. It springs from the way I see the world. That doesn't make me a good guy, it's just a description. I can't not see the world as a tension between relatively strong and relatively weak people. Those who don't see the world that way, or who don't agree with where I head with that vision aren't wrong, but we do disagree. And 25-30 yr old men who struggle with the basics of building a decent social life and come here looking for help or an outlet are not strong.

And to be clear, None of my love for the underdog is wasted on people who shoot people. They're obscenely cruel or mentally ill. They're also enabled, but that's a whole other topic.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,328 posts, read 14,547,380 times
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It's just a very big leap, from someone being an adult virgin, no matter how frustrated, and being a killer. I don't think that one leads directly to the other. I think that those people who are both, are a small minority. Most mass shooters, probably are not virgins (even if a few unhinged souls like that Elliot Roger guy felt it was justification) and most virgins, do not become mass shooters. I think that even the proportion of older virgins who go on to be all "Red Pill" about it, are not the majority. And that there are many "Red Pill" guys (my ex *cough*) who aren't virgins. Plenty of guys end up there who simply aren't getting their way in life, with women. Whatever that looks like in their case. But they are outliers.

However, one thing they seem to love doing, is complaining on the internet. Which is probably why we get the feeling that they are a threat and they are "out there" in the world ready to make mayhem. The Red Pillers would love us (women especially) to believe that this "movement" is a huge shift in the collective consciousness of men. But those of us who live in the real world (not just a few websites) know better.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:03 PM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,923,411 times
Reputation: 26919
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefiantNJ View Post




I am sorry, are you describing sex as men using women's bodies? We are talking about present, right? You know that some women enjoy sex as well?

I'm really sorry, did you notice the context? Yes, I'm aware. Are you aware that this could lead to frustration, whether she enjoyed the sex in the moment or not? I could help try to explain that a bit better if you need me to.

This is about frustrations. This is one frustration that can literally be devastating, has a looooooooong history, continues to the PRESENT day, and amazingly, doesn't generally result in forum-sanctioned (because their feelings were sooo hurrrt!) mass-shootings.

Quote:
All I hear from a lot of the female man haters here is contempt.
Hashtag irony.

You outright call women "female man haters" then complain that they have contempt for you? Truly do you not see how this works? Certain people (far from all) lash out at women in general, apparently NOT addressing the ACTUAL women who really did hurt them IRL (how brave), but instead screaming at strangers about what pieces of garbage we collectively are...then when we respond angrily...that's our fault?

Do you hear yourself, hon?


Last edited by JerZ; 02-15-2018 at 03:12 PM..
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