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But what are people supposed to say? I think there is some merit to your point, if your point is that some people can do a decent job of presenting themselves and still struggle to a painful degree. That's true, but that doesn't make the tendency to offer advice that questions or emphasizes non looks related issues or style choices that may be hurting a person misguided. Most of us could do a little better in some manner that both would be good for us and possibly make us a little more attractive. Do you disagree with the proposition that whatever your level of first impression physical attractiveness, you only help yourself by being as open and engaging and as interesting as you can be, and by dressing and grooming your self in a way that flatters you?
And if you (you personally or universal you) are already doing well with the things you can control and you're still struggling, what advice would you want to hear?
This exactly.
People like the one you quoted just want to whine and try to get sympathy. At some point it's hard to be sympathetic and try to lift people like that up. At that point, it just becomes obvious they want to sit in their own private pathetic puddle of low self-worth. Nobody can help those that don't want to be helped. However, don't blame everyone else for your self-inflicted misery.
I also know ugly people with good personalities who are single and mostly get ignored. I don’t think it’s fair to assume that all single ugly people who are struggling is because they don’t have a personality. The bottom line is that many people don’t want to get to know your personality if you don’t have looks good enough to get in the door.
I can only speak for myself but I never claimed that ugly people can’t find someone, but it’s not easy. A lot of people point to famous ugly people in relationships which isn’t even a fair comparison, because they have money and social status that the vast majority of people will never attain. Some people seem to be so quick to try to discount and invalidate ugly peoples’ experiences in the dating world by telling them “Looks don’t matter” or “You just don’t have a personality”, but the bottom line is that a lot of the time that stuff takes a backseat to looks. And I’m not saying that people have to date ugly people because no one has to date anyone that they’re not attracted to, but I can sympathize because I’ve been through it and I know how hard it is being ugly in this world.
I think some people do invalidate people's feelings and their experiences. As I wrote above, though, I don't know if it's often meant to be invalidating so much as hopeful or helpful. Sometimes, though, people's advice misses the mark, and sometimes the mark keeps moving around.
It sounds like you think this applies to you, or did in the past to at least some degree. What do you want to hear, or what might help you feel better about your dating challenges?
My bad I was so irritated by Mr know it all's post I quoted the wrong person.
Who's "Mr know it all"?
I'm not a "Mr" I'm a "Ms" but I am a Capricorn, so I won't argue with the other part if you meant me.
I have known men who were not lookers and who had great personalities who struggled, too, and I'm not saying they can't or don't. I don't think that they HAVE TO. I think it can take more effort or strategizing to reach the right audience if you're one of those people. And I recognize the challenges of those who are also shy, socially awkward, introverted, or have social anxiety, who fall into this category. It will take a lot of courage for them to step outside of whatever comfort zone they may be in, and I cheer that when I see it.
But I've already said, if you're trying to use the same, mostly shallow dating markets and formats, that are thick with people who are basing a lot of their filters on shallow criteria (and more power to 'em if that's their thing) if you don't stack up well based on those factors you may not succeed in that market.
I would not set up a bench next to the Girl Scouts in front of Walmart, trying to sell investment products. Does that mean that investment products are useless to everyone and no one can sell them anywhere ever? No. Not everybody is a Girl Scout cookie? lol
As to the whole "You don't know me!" topfet, you've already demonstrated that you are very much wrapped up in your own perception of the world to the point of dismissing the worldviews and lived experiences of other people. That alone, tells me your attitude is not great. I mean, I don't care because I'm not evaluating you as a dating candidate, but there's a good chance I could sniff that a mile off. I recall a number of guys from my OLD days whether in messages or first dates, who accidentally dropped a hint that they had a negative mindset and I noped right out on 'em. They probably thought they'd done a very good job of acting right in every way, but I got a sense that they were bad juju and I was done.
I mean, you're calling people you don't know, "liars" for daring to have lived a different experience than you have, and not agreeing that your subjective worldview IS REALITY as in, the reality we all live in...I think we can feel free to take you at your word and say that maybe your attitude is not the best. When you've clearly told us as much in your own words.
That post wasn't meant for you and no I don't know any ugly guys that are successful. What difference would it make if I did it doesn't do anything for me.
Well, the reason I stated what I did, is that I felt the difference it would make was in this:
Quote:
Say what you want but it my personal experience personality only matters after your looks get you in the door.
You already believe this, which probably isn't doing you any favors, as in addition to (apparently?) not being physically attractive, you also believe your personality won't matter regardless, so you may be giving off an Eyore vibe.
Believe it or not, I really am trying to help.
You have this worldview already and it isn't helping you. And yes, it does matter that you think "personality ONLY mattes AFTER your looks get you in the door." Because this means whether you realize it or not, you're probably giving that feeling off somewhere along the line. And it's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I don't want to frustrate you further, but I really do feel this makes a difference.
That post wasn't meant for you and no I don't know any ugly guys that are successful. What difference would it make if I did it doesn't do anything for me.
I asked earlier what would help you? I can somewhat empathize, and the "I know a guy who succeeds despite....." type of advice can sometimes be less than helpful, but you're commenting on a forum that discusses relationship challenges and how we might meet those challenges. If you're going to criticize people who are taking time to offer help, you might be more respectful in your approach and willing to suggest alternatives that might be more helpful.
I'm not blaming myself because women wouldn't give me a chance.
Thing is, you're recognizing your own right to have self interest, to want a woman in your life. But what about her? Does she have any right to want things for herself? To manage her own life for her own reasons and self-interest, as you are doing?
If so, the question bears asking, what do you have to offer a hypothetical woman?
The main thing I was after, was a companion in happiness. Someone who believed in the pursuit of happiness in a genuine way, was critical to me. I am willing to do the lion's share of the work, no joke, if I feel that my partner is present and enjoying life by my side. I don't know of any other point to life that is more important, than trying to enjoy it. There were other compatibilities that mattered to me, but I rejected the guy who was younger, better looking (objectively) and wealthy, for the one I could relax and be happy with.
Why SHOULD women give you a chance?
We are only responsible for our own lives, no woman is responsible for yours. Except your Mom, I guess.
I'm not blaming myself because women wouldn't give me a chance and I'm not looking for sympathy from anyone I'm big boy I can handle it. It seems like the only way to explain myself without sounding like I'm whining is to blame myself or stay silent, I think I'll take the latter from now on.
You're the only one backing yourself into a corner.
You literally spew your own narrative, but if anyone dares to share anything different, or GOD FORBID try to offer decent advice, you shoot it down and call them liars.
What else are people suppose to do? Seriously. Ask yourself this. Do you just want people to shut up and agree or do you just want to hear yourself complain over and over again?
Women don't have to give me a chance I never said they did but if I'm asked why I never had a date or a relationship that's why. Saying that women wouldn't date is not complaining.
Fair enough.
The only remaining thing left to say, is that you cannot know for sure what the reasoning was, for most of the women who wouldn't date you. Unless they came right out and said you were ugly, it may have been some other reason for them.
I'll be honestly self-critical here in saying that the reason I continue to go back & forth with you about this, is sheer projection. My ex, despite years of coaching and discussion on how to treat people and why some of the things he thinks, says and does are repugnant to women, insists that his looks are THE reason he's alone. I've given up, he isn't my problem anymore, despite the fact that I've got a real concern that he might get mad enough about it to kill someone someday and that it's entirely possible it could be me. None of that is about you. It's unfair of me to come to this discussion with you, with that baggage in my head.
You are not my ex. And I'm sure you'd have no appreciation for things being assumed about you, just because you say things that are similar to the things he says.
Similarly, not all women (or any sort of people) are the same, and assumptions made about others can be unfair, biased, and incorrect.
Guy with looks and personality can get the best of the crop.
Guy with looks and no personality can do very well.
Guy with no looks but fabulous personality can still do pretty well and in some cases (personally knew some like this) very well
Guys with neither looks nor personality will do poorly.
One example but I have more than a few:
growing up in my 'hood in Brooklyn NY in the 60s was a very short very fat (whole family was) kid, he was homely af to boot. But he was oddly confident and smart as ten whips, his Father looked just like him and was also smart (though blue collar), confident and took no crap. Our parents were friends and I watched this boy become popular with the popular, hot girls and I had girlfriends asking me to set them up as he and I had been pals since toddlerhood.
This guy looked like Danny DeVito but uglier. He was also hilarious come to think of it.
He ended up marrying a gorgeous gal from LI from an affluent family (his Father laid carpet; he worked for him) HE left HER years later and now has a not as hot but pretty and has great career (not mail order bride, she makes more $ than him) Filipina lady for a wife.
I have another friend like this but he's a doctor so I figured his $$ was why he got hot girls.
This line reminds me of something my mother said while watching the movie "Twins". For those who don't remember, it's a 1980s film in which two men conceived in a laboratory and separated at birth are reunited as men. One twin is Danny DeVito, short, bald, grew up in an orphanage and has led a sketchy life, including chasing other men's wives. The other is Arnold Schwarzeneggar, a completely fit specimen, educated and loved by his guardian but who is naive and has no experience with woman.
In one scene, Danny is waltzing and romancing his girlfriend at a motel, while Arnold ends up with his girlfriend's hot sister in the next but has no idea what to do with her.
My mother watched that scene, and said, "I'd rather have Danny DeVito." There's truth in there!
This line reminds me of something my mother said while watching the movie "Twins". For those who don't remember, it's a 1980s film in which two men conceived in a laboratory and separated at birth are reunited as men. One twin is Danny DeVito, short, bald, grew up in an orphanage and has led a sketchy life, including chasing other men's wives. The other is Arnold Schwarzeneggar, a completely fit specimen, educated and loved by his guardian but who is naive and has no experience with woman.
In one scene, Danny is waltzing and romancing his girlfriend at a motel, while Arnold ends up with his girlfriend's hot sister in the next but has no idea what to do with her.
My mother watched that scene, and said, "I'd rather have Danny DeVito." There's truth in there!
Yep. I'm telling you, the friend therein referenced had a head like a bowling ball I mean it was oddly round, huge nostrils, just dog ugly. I was never into him but I WAS attracted to his Father who looked the same; he was born on "the other side" (Italy), spoke broken English and commanded respect, projected a solidity and strength I found HAWT, was completely in charge of his home and family and very "old world". Confident but not cocky nor arrogant nor loud, never raised voice that I saw. Fat Friend mirrored Father exactly.
I knew an anesthesiologist who had a face like a rat; he was so brilliant and humble (HOT combination) I drooled over him and would've gladly been his side piece.
(This thread has me thinking of examples)
Now I DO have a pal (we dated but I never was attracted, I tried to be but no and now we're buds) also brilliant but ugly (looks like a Macaque monkey, and is tall and too skinny) an electrical engineer and programmer both, brilliant in his field and also builds his own houses and restores cars all self taught (all hot traits) but SO ANNOYING (talks rapid fire and too much, makes 3rd grade level jokes and quips, always has to "one-up" everybody, acts like he's 13 -bathroom humor-just too MUCH in your face) and horrible personality. He's never had a good relationship and goes years between dates.
Last edited by VexedAndSolitary; 06-04-2018 at 03:37 PM..
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