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... I'm just saying there's a difference between seeing it as, "Sex is of enough value to almost all men, that they will take risks or do things that are ethically questionable to satisfy that urge" rather than "Men can't live without it."
I agree.
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... when they really think about it, the physical release, that's easy enough to do alone. It's the human contact, the touch, and the validation and connection. The drive to love or feel loved, wanted. It's just that our culture has made it so that most men can only imagine finding any of that in a sexual interaction. Which is kind of sad.
Which is why the 'Girl Friend Experience' or GFE is a common menu item among sex-workers [or so I am told].
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... What I said about men growing and reinforcing the concept that sex is all a transactional business, first of all you and others are demonstrating right here what that mindset looks and feels like. It comes off very cynical, very jaded. And while I am, again, not exactly judging because yes, I know, it's a jungle out there. Dating is hard, I know what men go through, and I completely understand how one gets to this mentality. My only point is that it isn't helpful or conducive to the formation and maintenance of healthy relationships.
Men find this as a way to communicate about the process.
It does sound cynical and jaded, I agree. About after a few decades this mentality is what we are led to.
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... Scorekeeping does not make for a healthy relationship. It makes for justifying resentment. And what most women really want, is a deeply compatible companion, trust me, it's far more valuable to us than free dinners and drinks.
It is very difficult to avoid the score-keeping mentality.
After a couple years of marriage, my wife decided that she wanted to be celibate. It was not a decision that she came to after discussion with me, and if you were to have asked her she would have denied it. It took her 25 years to come to terms with it herself, and finally be able to discuss it with me. During that period of time, I had a very difficult time within the score-keeping mentality.
She has not changed her mind on the topic, and it has taken a lot of maturing for me, to get past that blockage.
She knows that sex happens in the world, but she wants to operate in a world where she never sees it or hears about it, or has to be interrupted by the topic.
She likes marriage to be a platonic companionship and business partnership.
This is from my personal experience. I have been fortunate to find counseling that has helped me to get through the anger and resentment.
In talking to other men, it is easy to see that it is a shared experience among many men.
Which is why the 'Girl Friend Experience' or GFE is a common menu item among sex-workers [or so I am told].
Men find this as a way to communicate about the process.
It does sound cynical and jaded, I agree. About after a few decades this mentality is what we are led to.
It is very difficult to avoid the score-keeping mentality.
After a couple years of marriage, my wife decided that she wanted to be celibate. It was not a decision that she came to after discussion with me, and if you were to have asked her she would have denied it. It took her 25 years to come to terms with it herself, and finally be able to discuss it with me. During that period of time, I had a very difficult time within the score-keeping mentality.
She has not changed her mind on the topic, and it has taken a lot of maturing for me, to get past that blockage.
She knows that sex happens in the world, but she wants to operate in a world where she never sees it or hears about it, or has to be interrupted by the topic.
She likes marriage to be a platonic companionship and business partnership.
This is from my personal experience. I have been fortunate to find counseling that has helped me to get through the anger and resentment.
In talking to other men, it is easy to see that it is a shared experience among many men.
Ouch. That is rough. I know a lot of couples reach that point, and I'm sorry that it's gone down that path for you and your wife.
I struggled with a lack of desire for sex with my ex for most of our relationship. Setting aside the effect of hormonal birth control (which was a BIG DEAL--it wrecked my libido, especially the Depo Provera shot) I would say that after the first year or two I mostly did not want to have sex. Not only didn't want it with him, but also had no desire to seek it with anyone else, and also felt squicky and emotionally threatened by thinking about it or talking about it with him.
There is a book I desperately wish I'd read a very long time ago, called "Come As You Are" by Emily Nagowski. I think it may be too far down the road for you and your wife, but I really recommend it for anyone who is sexually involved with women and wants to maintain a sexual relationship with a woman, and also, to the women themselves. I learned a great deal from that book.
But at the place where you are now...I think in your shoes I would insist on some kind of open relationship arrangement. Because I do believe it is valid to have NEEDS for sex and intimacy. By that I do not define it as "I cannot live without this" but something rather that without it you will not feel satisfied or ok in life, like a big important something is missing. I don't think that any partner should have to sacrifice their emotional health in a relationship--she is not wrong, she's stated what she needs, but that doesn't mean that you are wrong for needing what you need. If you can't match each other, then I believe it is valid to seek alternative solutions.
But I respect that my approach to the situation wouldn't work for everyone. A person of religious persuasion obviously would place the vows and sanctity of marriage ahead of such concerns. I am not religious or anything, so I believe in "build your relationship to suit the people involved in it."
Anyhow, I'm sorry you are faced with this. I hope you can find a way to navigate it and both of you can be ok.
There is nothing immoral about sex between consenting adults.
What is immoral is the commercialization of it and the inherent degradation and objectification of women.
I think that it is possible to pay for it, and yet not degrade or objectify the woman involved.
But a man must be very self-aware and not all men will be that way about it.
I'm honored to be friends with a very cool pro Dominatrix. She's one of the funniest characters I think I've ever known in my life, so her friendship is really a gift. And she talks about her work, the best clients that she has are extremely respectful and just grateful to her for providing what they need, even at a cost.
Hell, if anything, the men who pay her are the ones being degraded and objectified. It's what they are there for. And because she keeps her business above-board legally, there isn't even actual sex involved, although it is technically considered "sex work."
Some guys present themselves with this attitude of disrespect that one assumes any guy would have toward any sex working woman, and she turns them away. She's got enough business she can afford to be selective. As most halfway-decent working ladies I know also do.
I'm in my 20's and I've only been with one women my whole life, this women was my longtime girlfriend but it was a pretty toxic relationship and she was very verbally abusive to me and would call me all types of nasty names on a daily basis. As one could expect, after coming out of this relationship my confidence with women is to the floor; this is exasperated by the fact that this abusive women's has been my only relationship and in my youth I was very heavily bullied by both men and women and was the butt of a lot of girls jokes.
I want to move on with my life and I don't plan on just complaining and seeing myself as another victim, so naturally I want to build up my confidence with women in order to one day have a healthy relationship with a women that I desire. Does going with working girls at least for a little while seem like a good way to build that confidence? Or is this a bad idea? A lot of people seems to say that you build confidence by being with several women's so that's why this idea came to be.
No....
get on meetup.com and find groups of interest to you and participate.... If it is say a dog walking group, you may find half of the women are married and it's their day out of the house.... but they have single friends.... it ain't a hookup site, although I had my share. I was in one group that did informal volleyball, mini-golf, meet at a bar to see a band..... don't be a snob though... at the bar event you dance with ALL of the ladies... It's almost a sure thing to spend time with women.... go to a club with a band but no event, ask a lady to dance and you get 90% NO.... part of a meetup group, it's 90% YES... because you are with the group.... I'm engaged, and stumbled across my fiance after I stumbled across fetlife.com... really...
Marshyy, I know a man who went 56 years without having sex, and is one of the most emotionally healthy humans I've ever met. He found other ways to take care of the physical part and worked on his life and philosophies, overcame any bitterness or anger he had going on, and so when I contemplate his path through life and I hear guys saying, "well a man CAN'T"... I am not buying that. You want to be able to SAY you can't, so you can justify whatever. I'm not judging, because lord knows I've justified some impulsive behaviors on whatever grounds in my life, we all do. I'm just saying there's a difference between seeing it as, "Sex is of enough value to almost all men, that they will take risks or do things that are ethically questionable to satisfy that urge" rather than "Men can't live without it."
Sex is extremely important to men after all his other basic needs are met. Getting his sexual needs met determines the quality and satisfaction of men with his life. I believe that is almost a biological instinct although it is of lower priority than basic human needs of food, water and shelter...
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
And you know, from him and other men I have known who have been though dry spells, what they tell me is, it's not the sex they are truly missing when they really think about it, the physical release, that's easy enough to do alone. It's the human contact, the touch, and the validation and connection. The drive to love or feel loved, wanted. It's just that our culture has made it so that most men can only imagine finding any of that in a sexual interaction. Which is kind of sad.
Yes and if a man can not get those from a willing women, I see no problem with him occasionally paying for this experience with a high quality sex worker. Yes, it is not the same as with willing woman but it is better than not getting any "human contact, the touch, and the validation and connection..."
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
What I said about men growing and reinforcing the concept that sex is all a transactional business, first of all you and others are demonstrating right here what that mindset looks and feels like. It comes off very cynical, very jaded. And while I am, again, not exactly judging because yes, I know, it's a jungle out there. Dating is hard, I know what men go through, and I completely understand how one gets to this mentality. My only point is that it isn't helpful or conducive to the formation and maintenance of healthy relationships. Mind you, I think that healthy relationships are in relatively short supply, because I went most of my life not seeing them. I'm in a very different place in life now though, and I see plenty now, and most of them have jumped off the angry hamster wheel of transactional thinking. They are doing something very different.
I think that "transactional" approach is realistic. You can call it cynical of you want... If you don't want to use the word "transaction", feel free to use some other word. But I see all relationships as based on transactions to some extent or an exchange of something for something. In the early stages of dating, this usually means that men pays for dates in exchange for a change to develop a relationship and eventually have sex. In later stages, if the couple gets married, men have to contribute to paying for everything, buying the couple's home, contributing to the running of the household, taking care of children, etc. If he is unable to do any of these, the woman will eventually walk out on him as evidenced by the fact that women break up more than 60% of all marriages. That is despite the fact that supposedly all marriages are based on "love".
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Men do not HAVE to spend money wooing a woman to get a woman. Even men who are nowhere near some "Chad" perfection top % whatever. A lot of men do, because they think it helps. But it's a game you choose to play by the rules you choose to believe.
Absolute fantasy. Men in the US almost always have to spend money in the initial stages of dating. Just read one of the forever popular "Who pays for the first date" thread...
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,957,550 times
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Originally Posted by DefiantNJ
Absolute fantasy. Men in the US almost always have to spend money in the initial stages of dating. Just read one of the forever popular "Who pays for the first date" thread...
Generally the first date, sure, as generally they ask. After that, it's usually split from what I see, unless there is incredible financial unbalance, which is pretty uncommon. But if paying for a couple of cocktails once is that big an "investment" just don't freaking date.
Bull****....women are just as horny as men.... Yes, there are some who get offended if you kiss them on the lips on your first date. There are just as many who will bang you in the back seat of your car after a few drinks.... Most of us, men and women, fall in the middle.... Anyway, hookers is NOT the answer.... Go meet real women.... Heck, go to church bingo. The old lady you sit next to may have a divorced daughter to fix you up with....
I posted that a fair amount of women I know don't date short men and that I think it would be tough to be short as a guy.
Those are two completely different statements.
I agree, its two completely different statements, but the meaning is the same, Lol
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