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Old 08-25-2018, 10:46 AM
 
1,593 posts, read 771,098 times
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This is probably going to have way too much information so if the wall of text puts you off there's a TL;DR at the bottom. Feel free to go based off of that, I don't mind repeating information if I need to, whatever gets me feedback.



Personal info:
-Good, stable, good-paying career (college degree)
-I live alone (apartment)
-I live in a very small town surrounded by very small towns. Nearest movie theater: 45 minutes away. Nearest city with >100k people: 1.5 hours away. Nearest city with a pro sports team: 2.5 hours away. That hurts my prospects. (And yes, I know this is a CITY forum. But, it's also got an active community with some good advice, so here I am.)
-Well-spoken, intelligent, kind
-Good conversationalist: Funny, quick-witted, good listener
-Introvert. I'm overcoming shyness (with a lot of success) but large groups of people (bigger than 10) stress me out. I can manage in them but I'm not at my social best, and they wear me the hell out.
-5 on looks. Overweight, but dropping. Will probably always be on the pudgy side. Thinning hair. Tall, though. Big frame, muscular but not toned.
-Wardrobe style is not a strength yet. It's getting better. I dress well, professional, just not with a lot of personal style.
-Limited social circle. Not a lot of common interests with the people in rural communities around me.
-Good hygiene. I keep clean and well-groomed, I keep my spaces clean.
-Formerly lots of issues with self-esteem. Much improved now (therapy)
-Still lots of issues with self-confidence. Working on them (therapy) but ultimately my past failures end up feeling like a Sword of Damocles over my head whenever I'm putting myself out on the market. I try to put them behind me but this may be my biggest problem; until I get a Yes, I'm not sure I can expel them completely.


My issues and what I've done to fix them:
I had life-long self-esteem issues from bullying very early on. Affected my life in a great many ways. I didn't like myself, and so I didn't think other people would like me either, especially women. I did a lot of self-rejection...believing that I wasn't good enough and there wasn't a chance for me. On the rare occasions I would ask a girl out it was frankly pathetic and I was quickly turned down. Added more fuel to my problems. After experiences like this in high school through mid-college, I gave up on myself completely. Stopped trying, and refused to let myself feel attraction to women around me (attraction led to feelings, and feelings led to pain, in my experience).


I had opportunities to date in this time of despair. Friends would offer to set me up on dates (a few of which I went on, double-date style), and I actually had some women approach me and give me pretty clear signals they were interested; I wasn't interested, I was so convinced that they wouldn't like me (self-rejection) and that I would only get hurt that I didn't pursue anything. Led to a lot of self-pity.
Fast-forward. A year ago. I decided I don't just WANT to be happy, I decided that I DESERVE to be happy.



I start changing things about myself. I'm losing weight (down 70 pounds in the last year and falling). I'm pursuing a more active lifestyle with hobbies that put me in touch with other people...hiking, climbing, dancing, sports. That's been difficult, my work schedule is very demanding (in fact, I hid in my work for years to escape my problems...workaholic). I'm getting professional psychiatric help to work on my issues. I like myself and am comfortable with the person that I am (and am becoming).


I've watched hours of video and read dozens of articles and books on how to improve social skills, defeat mental pessimism, exude more confidence, positivity, and energy, be a better conversationalist, be more attractive to women, recognize signs of attraction, and how to act on them (in a healthy way, NOT pick-up artistry).


I wouldn't say that I've hit the dating market per se. I don't go to bars or clubs--medical condition prevents me from drinking, hate the club scene. Instead I've focused on being more open and social to people around me in general (not just women who I find attractive); I introduce myself, get to know them a bit, banter and joke, and can continue this casual acquaintance-ship over multiple meetings. That's been my primary method of trying to meet people, and I've really come way out of my comfort zone and thrown myself into the world around me in the last year or so.



My introversion tends to point me to quieter pursuits...I like to enjoy scenes in nature, I'm a movie/TV snob, I like intellectual pursuits like science and history, I like board games and reading. Difficult to meet new people, but I've tried my best, feeling that I'll be AT my best in environments where I'm not feeling like I'm trying to force my way through something I'm not enjoying.


My on-going problem:
Of the people I've met quite a few were women I found attractive. Of those unfortunately most were not single (nature of the beast for a man my age, most women are going to be already involved in a relationship). Of those women I was attracted to, a few were single, and of those, if over the course of talking with them, getting to know them, and flirting a little bit I felt like there was a connection, I asked them out. I've asked out more women in the last year than I had the rest of my life combined. As of now, all of them declined my offer to date them; in my whole life, no woman has ever accepted my offer to go out.


This is really hurting my self-confidence. I feel like I've got a lot to offer as a potential partner (that's my new-found self-esteem). But the rejections are really hurting my self-confidence.


What could be causing the rejections:
-Neediness? Desperation? I don't think these are my problems. My friends have seen "the new me" in action with people, including attractive women. I've asked them after the fact if I was coming off as needy or desperate, they said no. I suppose it's possible I am and they're trying to make me feel better.


-Need more practice, especially reading the signs of attraction? Probably. My confidence is shaken, though, every time I think a woman is attracted to me and sending me signals and I end up getting rejected. Do I really know them? Need to keep working.


-Being inherently disrespectful or objectifying of women? Too interested in appearance or sex? Absolutely not. Women are not objects. They are people. I do not blame women for my predicament, I do not hate women, I am not entitled to their time or their bodies. There is a reason I'm posting here and not at some incel cesspool. And while I certainly have a sex drive, sex is not a priority for me; I'm not interested in hookups, casual sex, or FWB. I'm not going to take anyone to bed if I don't care for her. I'm looking for the chance to start a relationship with an interesting woman and let it grow into something special and intimate.


-Lack self-confidence? Surely. I have no experience that I can look back on and say "See? I was successful in pursuing this girl before, I can do that again." My attempts have all failed throughout my life.


-Insecure? Probably. I'm getting professional help and I've done a lot to improve this. But I still don't have any experience with women at an age when most men have kids in school. I've raised my level of attractiveness from a 2 to about a 5 in the last year, but I'm still self-conscious about my body...I wince when I see women make fun of balding men or poking fun at pudgy dad-bods.



-Online dating? It's an option. But, going back to the insecurity. Every time I'm thinking about trying online dating the pictures of handsome men on the cover make me think twice..."I don't look anything like that, and online dating is a buyer's market for women, I'd be wasting money." I've looked for input in several places around the internet; I've had women suggest that I try online dating, but not guys. From what I've heard from guys I can expect to spend $50 a month and a lot of time customizing an interesting, engaging profile and interesting, engaging openers just to stare at an empty inbox. I've also got a very good reason to be wary of online dating. I'd rather not dangle it out on the open internet, it's somewhat personal information, but if you'd like to know to see if you've got any input PM me (I promise, it's nothing creepy). Nonetheless, I'll probably try this route sooner or later.


-Location? Schedule? Big problems. I've got to drive hours to find activities I'm interested in (and thus people who share those interests). Not very many single women where I'm at, or in the surrounding areas. I'd consider work to be a possibility, but, "Don't dip your pen into company ink."


-Realistic expectations? I'm a regular, every-day guy. I'm asking regular, every-day women. Not that I come into contact with fantastically hot women regularly, much less single ones, but I'm aware of my "league" and am cognizant of trying to date outside of it. I know you women may not want to believe this, but the vast majority of you have qualities that the vast majority of men will find attractive, and that's what I'm focusing on. Neither do I try to ask out girls who are clearly too young (creepy), I'm a mature adult and I'm looking for the company of a mature adult, not a girl in the later stages of adolescence. I've asked out women who were 3-4 years older than me ranging down to 5-6 years younger than me. Under 25 is too young, generally.


-How I'm asking? Possibly. I used to ask women out with the expectation that I would be rejected. Now...I build up a connection with them, I visualize being successful in asking them out, and I ask with as much confidence as I'm able to muster. When I'm rejected, it hurts, I'll be honest. I've read that the pain of rejection will diminish the more you get rejected, but that's not my experience. It takes a lot of courage on my part to ask, and failing again and again makes it a little harder each time to fortify that courage and put myself out there with confidence. I ask with 10x more confidence than I used to, but it still hurts to be rejected.

Any advice? Am I doing something wrong? There's a very dark part of me that still whispers "It's because you're not good enough, and never will be." I try to kill that part of my mind every time it comes slithering up, but it's hard to banish it completely as long as I am not experiencing success; could it be that I'm just not cut out for any of this?

TL;DR
Never had a woman say yes when I asked her out; Put a lot of work into improving myself and overcoming my baggage in the last year; I've got some unique challenges; I don't think I'm a scumbag incel loser; Looking for advice on how I can improve even more and start having success
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Old 08-25-2018, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
16,961 posts, read 17,256,644 times
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Persistency! Keep trying - you'll get one to say yes.
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Old 08-25-2018, 10:59 AM
 
92 posts, read 53,862 times
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Thanks for the summary. I skimmed through the full text but the last part was helpful.

Here's my take: I identified with some of what you had written. I used to be overweight, had suffered from low self-esteem, was bullied, etc. I had a long-term relationship that ended in my mid-20s and I felt lost for a few years after that until I met my wife. The dry spell I suffered in the dating scene was relatively short but felt like it lasted a lifetime, and it seemed like nothing at all was working unless the goal was to be alone.

When you lose weight and settle into a new body, it will be life-changing. Throwing away the fat clothes, getting new stuff and feeling that people look at you differently is something I experienced and can't describe.

I'd put my energy here first, and then see what happens. Count calories (eating and exercise calories) and you can get this weight loss thing down to a science. How you carry yourself within your body makes a huge difference.
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:00 AM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,881,667 times
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I am really sorry.

Have you asked a very very honest person who knows you? You sound like someone who should be able to get a date. I think it is time to figure this mystery out and it will take someone who knows and interacts with you.
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:16 AM
 
1,593 posts, read 771,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
I am really sorry.

Have you asked a very very honest person who knows you?

No, but that's a good idea. I know a couple of very, very honest friends (women) who I know wouldn't hold back. I've always been sort of scared of asking that question...do I really want to know? Yes, I do now. Will I sound self-piteous? Maybe. That's a chance I'll have to take.
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:17 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,086 posts, read 107,113,138 times
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OP, you sound pretty good, on paper. You have really good self-awareness, and are using that to take concrete steps toward self-improvement. That's impressive, compared to the more typical posts we get here.

Maybe when you're chatting up women, and they seem to be responding positively, you make your dating request too soon? Maybe instead, you could either a) say "it's been nice talking with you. Maybe we'll run into each other again." (It's common to run into people again in small towns, I've found.). Or b) ask her if you could buy her a coffee,. "It's been nice talking with you. Could I get you a coffee at the coffee bar, so we can continue, or do you need to be on your way?" I think you probably would get a second chance to chat up the same women, being that it's a small town, so maybe a waiting strategy would work in some cases. Let them get familiar with you. Wave, if you see them passing by, initiate a chat if you see them at the store, or whatever.

IDK. It's hard to say. Seems like you've gotten good feedback from friends. Keep trying. Don't get deflated. Keep participating in events and activities in larger towns around you. Join something that has women your age in it, even if it means driving an hour and a half once/week to a location.

"Funny, quick-witted, good listener." Add to that, "intelligent", I assume. What's not to like? You're doing a good job of coming out of your shell. (Congratulations!). Keep doing that.

Any chance you could move to a bigger town, in the near future? Congrats, too, on the weight loss. Keep up all the good work!
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:18 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,086 posts, read 107,113,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
No, but that's a good idea. I know a couple of very, very honest friends (women) who I know wouldn't hold back. I've always been sort of scared of asking that question...do I really want to know? Yes, I do now. Will I sound self-piteous? Maybe. That's a chance I'll have to take.
Great idea! Report back. You're sufficiently motivated, now, that you can handle their honesty. It's time. We're here for you, if you need us.
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:33 AM
 
22,284 posts, read 21,623,966 times
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I have to say, I am impressed with your attitude. I read your whole post and it is very honest and sincere. There are a lot of guys like you here with the same troubles connecting with women romantically, but almost all of them suffer from bitterness , blame or are basically dishonest with themselves about the causes of their problems.

Because of your attitude and willingness to work on yourself, and because you have a clear-eyed sense of Who You Are and what you need to do, I believe you will succeed.

Keep up with the self-improvement, and let women get to know you in a relaxed environment. Look for signs of interest and keep it casual (and flirtacious!) for a while until you are sure. Then you can make your move
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:38 AM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,881,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
No, but that's a good idea. I know a couple of very, very honest friends (women) who I know wouldn't hold back. I've always been sort of scared of asking that question...do I really want to know? Yes, I do now. Will I sound self-piteous? Maybe. That's a chance I'll have to take.
There's no shame in these feelings! You aren't being self-pitying. You're just trying to solve a problem and be happy.
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:38 AM
 
1,593 posts, read 771,098 times
Reputation: 2157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Maybe when you're chatting up women, and they seem to be responding positively, you make your dating request too soon? Maybe instead, you could either a) say "it's been nice talking with you. Maybe we'll run into each other again." (It's common to run into people again in small towns, I've found.). Or b) ask her if you could buy her a coffee,. "It's been nice talking with you. Could I get you a coffee at the coffee bar, so we can continue, or do you need to be on your way?" I think you probably would get a second chance to chat up the same women, being that it's a small town, so maybe a waiting strategy would work in some cases. Let them get familiar with you. Wave, if you see them passing by, initiate a chat if you see them at the store, or whatever.

Timing--yeah, my timing is probably not very good. For years (during my self-rejection period) was to wait...a LONG time...before approaching a girl I was interested in. Like, months or longer. Looking for any sign that she may be interested, and also waiting until the pressure of liking her built up to intolerable levels. During this interim period I would act as if I wasn't interested in her, as to me nothing would be more embarrassing for a girl than for it to be known that I liked her. Very unhealthy.


Now, I may very well be erring on the other side. I tend to ask fairly quickly if I think I notice mutual interest. I'm also worried about letting the chance slip between my fingers, that I may not run into them again. What you suggest could be an intermediary. Some of my requests have been through social media (with people that I'd first met in person, not creepily dropping in on random women who looked attractive), where it's easier to keep up with someone over distance, though. Some I've asked early, some I've waited for a few weeks. Still haven't had any luck, though.


I do have one hang-up about trying to date locally (same as the online dating hang-up). I'll PM you, I promise it's nothing creepy, but I'd like your feedback. Thanks.
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