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Goal: To be able to speak to beautiful women and potential date
Action: Meet one stranger a day that your are not attracted to and speak to them (It could be on the beach, dog park, grocery store) Do this until you feel really comfortable meeting strangers.
Next Action: After you have mastered the above action, move on to meeting one stranger a day that you are attracted to . Be cordial. You just have to build your confidence. After you have mastered exchanging pleasantries, move on to conversations.
I thought I was past all that. I've been much better about it in the last year. I hit a situation today though where I ran into not one but THREE women I'm attracted to. None are real possibilities (all work-related), but biology is biology.
One I knew I was going to interact with today, and it went okay. Able to prepare for it and fake the feelings away. The other two surprised me. Butterflies, avoiding eye contact, forced terse speech. Consciously avoiding and yet subconsciously drifting closer.
That feels like unacceptably creepy behavior for a 33 year old man. With women who are possibilities I'll approach and take my chances. Maybe the hangup is, if they were to approach me I'd go for it, but with work being work I'm not willing to take the chance of being assertive...so it's kind of a no-man's land for me, between "Yes, I want to ask her on a date" and "No, she's absolutely not an option at all." I'm afraid my behavior gives away my raging self-confidence issues.
Any tips or advice on dealing with it?
Sure. Realize that, at all times, you are taking to a living, breathing person with insecurities and flaws just like you. This is a fellow passenger on the ship of life. You are not speaking to a fertility goddess. She is amazing, but so are you. You have things to offer the world, just the same as she does.
Women want to be adored, but they hate to be worshipped. The sooner you understand that, the easier it gets.
“Enjoy.” Don’t think so. This behavior wasn’t even cute and endearing when I was 15. Made me look like a creepy loner, and that’s how I was treated. Now as a grown man I’m afraid it puts me more in the behavioral range of someone who’s dangerous.
Dangerous? A guy who avoids eye contact with a woman and doesn't talk to her is dangerous? No, that's just your fear talking.
Avoiding talking to women out of fear is just as bad as being dead inside. The woman doesn't get to experience any of the good.
I'm gonna tell you something weird. (surprising to no one, I'm sure.)
There was a phase of my life where I was transitioning from the ugly, awkward girl who was hated by everyone, to an attractive young woman who was interesting to many. There were challenges there, but given various issues I had, one of my problems was putting too much weight on what other people thought of me. I had to get past that. Because as a woman, wanting too much to get that affirmation can mean letting all sorts of males into one's bed...including some that have no business being there. For one thing. But the overall shaky sense of self thing, is problematic in some way or other to practically anybody.
At some point when I was still the ugly duckling girl, I invented a couple of imaginary friends. I know, it sound stupid and possibly crazy but hear me out. Bear with. At no time did I believe them to be real, at all times I knew that they were tools in my mind, symbolic of parts of me, beginning and ending in my head. Holding a silent, mental conversation with one is merely a way of turning the monologue into a dialogue. Giving myself affirmations instead of waiting for others to do it. It's a mental exercise, not an outright delusion, if that makes sense? I drew pictures of them and imagined them walking around with me like invisible spirits. They remind me that I'm awesome. They can snarl at people I don't like. They can dance to music that I cannot because I'm physically kinda clumsy and awkward. Anything I cannot simply do, they can act out in my mind. And they help me remind myself that whatever happens with other people, whatever happens that is outside of my control, I'll still be here, being awesome, being fine. So I don't care. Poof, tension gone.
In other words, it takes the need for the whole "mirror" thing, and internalizes it. I believe that the best kind of self work, can be identifying what we need, and thinking creatively to find solutions that are heathy and working, rather than those that sabotage us and/or don't work. If there is an element you cannot control (other people) how can you cut the rope of your NEED for what only they can give...and find a way to satisfy it for yourself. I'm talking about emotional needs, psychological ones. Not sex, I think we all know how to push that button and get that particular food pellet.
And here's another thing for you to chew on and think about. If you go through life with an agenda in the back of your mind and affecting your interactions with other people, it will color your behavior and they will sense that. I can absolutely tell when a man just wants to be cool and friendly and interact with me, even if he is thinking I'm attractive and imagining more in his mind...versus when he is interacting with me BECAUSE he wants something and thinks I might be a source for it. Whether it's because he craves sex, or because he's about to try and sell me something. I can smell an agenda. And it makes me put my guard up, immediately. And the same works inversely. One time I went to a convention, it was a sci fi con but my kink group had a class at the adult, "after dark" part. I was supposed to walk around the place and hand out flyers for our class. Now, normally I am the most social creature you can imagine, and can easily and smoothly talk to nearly anyone. But I have never felt so awkward in my life, as trying to strike up forced conversations for the basic purpose of handing someone a flyer on something they probably weren't even interested in. It would not have mattered if it was kink, or selling my kid's fundraiser, or pushing church pamphlets. I know there's a good chance the reaction is "uh...no...go away..." so boom, awkward. If I'd simply been chatting with strangers for no reason other than to pass the time, no agenda, it would have been so much easier.
Okay. So what's my way forward from here.
And I'll be very honest: what you've said here has made it very difficult for me to feel positive about the things I felt like I had accomplished in the last year, at least in terms of making me a dateable person. Because the last time I "treated women like this" was before I decided that that whole side of life wasn't for me.
I have a thought. Your frame of mind, when you go to talk to these women, (as Birdie said before) is that you CANNOT worry or care what the result is. You dont care whether it will work or not. You dont need them, you're good with who you are. You are just talking to these women to find out if they are actually interesting to talk to. Theres no way to be nervous if you're auditioning them, to see if they will work for you.
You already know the result you want, but you cant dictate how it goes. So you go into it not worried about what she thinks, or what happens afterward.
You go into it knowing you are charming, and fun to talk to, thats it. Thats how you start. Is this woman going to be interesting to you? They cant all be, so have a standard. Once you get her to a point that she is curious about you, then you worry about taking it further. This will take practice, so you will have to torpedo a few until you learn where youre going wrong. Also make sure youre not shooting above your league.
In the long run what would happen, is that you start dating just anyone, and you will see which personality works and which doesnt. And at that point, you would be vetting women based on what they say. So you might as well start now.
But this could help you avoid putting them on a pedestal, theyre only people.
Goal: To be able to speak to beautiful women and potential date
Action: Meet one stranger a day that your are not attracted to and speak to them (It could be on the beach, dog park, grocery store) Do this until you feel really comfortable meeting strangers.
Next Action: After you have mastered the above action, move on to meeting one stranger a day that you are attracted to . Be cordial. You just have to build your confidence. After you have mastered exchanging pleasantries, move on to conversations.
Although I did not have the "realize I've oriented my body to be facing across the room towards them. Copying their body language" behavior the OP described I was seriously shy. About 5 years ago I decided I had to fix that. I was just too self conscious and shy to initiate conversations with women.
Here is how I solved it: My best battlefield was my local supermarket. I was very awkward at first but I started making comments, suggestions, joking with other customers. I continued these little mini-conversations with other customers and as time went on I found it easier and easier to approach and begin conversing with strangers. I didn't focus on women, my problem wasn't women, it was shyness so I chatted with men and women, young and old, they were just innocuous conversations about products or shopping or anything I could think of. I may have seemed a bit silly since often people in supermarkets have that thousand yard stare, but I rarely if at all found anybody who wouldn't play along for a minute or two.
Doing this broke the ice for me. I not only feel very comfortable initiating conversations with strangers, I've discovered I enjoy it. These days chatting with strangers has become an additional enjoyment in shopping, I do it everywhere, and it goes well with my love of people watching. (Being at a mall for me is like being in a big aquarium of people, enjoying watching them, occasionally chatting with some of them.
I haven't narrowed down to trying to pick up women but perhaps one of these encounters may go deeper some day. However it has totally cured me of social anxiety in chatting with strangers in a public setting. (Actually online dating is has been so successful for me that I don't need to meet women IRL, although I'm always open to that.)
BTW, I've dated many women I met at work. That worked so well for me (before I became self-employed and working from home) that many of my dates came from making friends at work (not just women, I was friendly with everybody—work is nicer when you are working with friends—but some of them were women and some of the single women became dates). The secret to not getting into trouble fishing in the company pond is to make friends with everybody, then go to lunch with men, mixed groups, women. I became better friends with some of the women and that led to our dating.
I met my two very best buddies as colleagues at work, and these friendships have lasted years. I met my best GF at work (we were together for several years), she and I often took lunch together although we never dated in the evening until I departed for a career opportunity at another employer.
So my advice for anybody who is shy, practice on complete strangers. Do it in public while shopping or at other public events. The point is that in this situation rejection means practically nothing in psychological cost. The exercise gets you comfortable with approaching and initiating conversations with strangers. Psychologists call this desensitization. Something bothers you, instead of avoiding it you approach confront it (your shyness). Through repeated successful interactions you become more at ease with it until you may even learn to enjoy it as I have.
Shyness is the enemy when you want to meet possible dates, and losing shyness also helps that awkward feeling when you are on a date.
It sounds like you have a fragmented sense of self. You feel accomplished in your professional world and your social life. But somehow you absolutely hate the romantic, sexual "you" and expect others to feel the same.
I suspect something happened to you in childhood? Is that something you are exploring in therapy?
Although I did not have the "realize I've oriented my body to be facing across the room towards them. Copying their body language" behavior the OP described I was seriously shy. About 5 years ago I decided I had to fix that. I was just too self conscious and shy to initiate conversations with women.
Here is how I solved it: My best battlefield was my local supermarket. I was very awkward at first but I started making comments, suggestions, joking with other customers. I continued these little mini-conversations with other customers and as time went on I found it easier and easier to approach and begin conversing with strangers. I didn't focus on women, my problem wasn't women, it was shyness so I chatted with men and women, young and old, they were just innocuous conversations about products or shopping or anything I could think of. I may have seemed a bit silly since often people in supermarkets have that thousand yard stare, but I rarely if at all found anybody who wouldn't play along for a minute or two.
Doing this broke the ice for me. I not only feel very comfortable initiating conversations with strangers, I've discovered I enjoy it. These days chatting with strangers has become an additional enjoyment in shopping, I do it everywhere, and it goes well with my love of people watching. (Being at a mall for me is like being in a big aquarium of people, enjoying watching them, occasionally chatting with some of them.
I haven't narrowed down to trying to pick up women but perhaps one of these encounters may go deeper some day. However it has totally cured me of social anxiety in chatting with strangers in a public setting. (Actually online dating is has been so successful for me that I don't need to meet women IRL, although I'm always open to that.)
BTW, I've dated many women I met at work. That worked so well for me (before I became self-employed and working from home) that many of my dates came from making friends at work (not just women, I was friendly with everybody—work is nicer when you are working with friends—but some of them were women and some of the single women became dates). The secret to not getting into trouble fishing in the company pond is to make friends with everybody, then go to lunch with men, mixed groups, women. I became better friends with some of the women and that led to our dating.
I met my two very best buddies as colleagues at work, and these friendships have lasted years. I met my best GF at work (we were together for several years), she and I often took lunch together although we never dated in the evening until I departed for a career opportunity at another employer.
So my advice for anybody who is shy, practice on complete strangers. Do it in public while shopping or at other public events. The point is that in this situation rejection means practically nothing in psychological cost. The exercise gets you comfortable with approaching and initiating conversations with strangers. Psychologists call this desensitization. Something bothers you, instead of avoiding it you approach confront it (your shyness). Through repeated successful interactions you become more at ease with it until you may even learn to enjoy it as I have.
Shyness is the enemy when you want to meet possible dates, and losing shyness also helps that awkward feeling when you are on a date.
I agree with this. I think the OP spends too much time in online forums. He needs to talk to real people to realize the vast majority aren’t so scary. He needs to stop thinking he has so many issues. Most of us I bet had periods where we felt super awkward, didn’t know to start a conversation and were terrified at social settings. The best cure is what you stated. Talk to people everywhere. I suggested the same and for him to drive to a larger city since he is from a small town.
I love talking to random people too. I don’t even think twice about it especially if I’m in a good mood, my mouth opens I smile and start talking. But this happened from me forcing myself. He needs to start talking to men, women, couples, people walking their dog.
Just compliment them, or say it’s a nice day isn’t it. Anything you can say with a smile. I think a supermarket is a great idea. “Produce looks great today.” “Wow, what a great sale.”
I used to hate myself, and the first step is stop saying “I have low self esteem”. Tell yourself how much you love yourself.
It sounds like you don't see a specific way forward with these women, but it would hurt your ego to say that you don't have a chance with them, so you're taking your mediocre interactions with them and trying to come up with some grand explanation why the interactions aren't better than mediocre. The "no man's land" concept you're stuck on is just food for your ego, which likes to hear, oh, I could date those women under different circumstances, and actually, now that I ruminate on it a little more, I still might be able to, I just have to not be obviously unattractive to these women, and then maybe they'll be the first to make a move.
To think this way doesn't mean there's something wrong with you; if just means you're using an ineffective frame of mind. First off, being "not obviously unattractive" is a lame self-image to have, which is why it leads to lame behaviors like avoiding eye contact. Replace it with a more positive self-image related to who you are at work, what projects you're working on, what you like to do outside of work, etc. Then, what you haven't mentioned even once in your posts is how women actually react to you -- this is much more important than all of this anticipated negative feedback you've got going on in your head. My guess is these women hardly remember their interactions with you -- a realization which might sting if you're living in a fantasy where they're waiting with bated breath for you to heroically overcome your weird habits and become the irresistible catch they always knew you were, but which could also take the pressure off and inspire you to redirect your energies toward women where you have a clean slate and you haven't already been put into the "mediocre, unexciting office guy who I would never date" box.
A great step toward building up a positive self-image is to talk to strangers, as others have said.
Last edited by tribecavsbrowns; 10-03-2018 at 03:12 PM..
It sounds like you have a fragmented sense of self. You feel accomplished in your professional world and your social life. But somehow you absolutely hate the romantic, sexual "you" and expect others to feel the same.
I suspect something happened to you in childhood? Is that something you are exploring in therapy?
That’s how I feel, yes. Social self is coming along. I’ve actually been implementing a lot of the suggestions on here already...looking for reasons and ways to talk to people (any/all people, not just women), making it a goal to meet and converse with at least one new person per day, that sort of thing. Professional self had come a long way. I used to have issues with that too, to the point that it affected my interview abilities. I see myself as a valuable member of my profession now. Overall value as a person, I like and respect who I am now.
Romantic self...that’s been far more difficult for me. I’ve only known one person who made me feel like I was capable of being attractive, and she ended up doing some pretty awful things to me before too long. After that happened, I knew I could let that be the Story of Me, or I could focus on the positives, that she proved I was capable of playing this game even if I was starting very late, and work to get better at it. That’s the route I chose, but my efforts to take initiative haven’t been successful yet.
Childhood...yes. Kindergarten and first grade, I was bullied and ostracized at school on a daily basis. Every day for two years. That’s an enternity for a five-six year old. I had only one friend during that time, and I only saw him after school, never during, especially at recess where most of what I can remember happened. I went from being a precocious and talkative kid, the type of kid who can entertain a whole restaurant with things I’d say and do, to being an extremely shy, withdrawn, quiet kid. Those two years taught six-year-old me that I had no value to others, no place amongst my peers. I avoided interacting with other people because I believed my presence was an imposition on them. Rejection and ostracism would crush me...they were confirmations to me that I was worthless.
That severely stunted my social and romantic development. Put the latter on indefinite hold, actually.
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