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Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,962,945 times
Reputation: 40635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length
Because I’m in this group, and it is very painful for me.
If your criteria for what issues to care about is “Will this cause society to collapse?” I’d say that’s a pretty high bar.
What is painful about it? Pre internet (or pre where it was widespread) these things never came up. We just lived our lives. Dated, had sex, didn't date... had sex. Went to parties and shows, met people in class or at parties, and just kept on chugging along.
Why does it pain you? Just get out there and live life, make connections, and boom... nature happens. There are sad times (it happens with emotions), but lots of good ones. You're an individual, not a data point in a population. Go party and meet people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane
Your roommates are probably too busy for relationships.
We have to "stereotype" in order to understand societal changes. Why is the marriage and birth rate going down so much? Since it affects society as a whole, we have to ask.
We know why. As women become more educated and financially secure on their own marriage gets delayed or passed by, and people have fewer children. It's been like that for a long long time. It's why NGOs in developing nations focus on educating girls/young women, it has the most positive impact on society.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,699 posts, read 41,742,544 times
Reputation: 41381
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane
Your roommates are probably too busy for relationships.
We have to "stereotype" in order to understand societal changes. Why is the marriage and birth rate going down so much? Since it affects society as a whole, we have to ask.
All stereotypes are are just lazy thoughts used to classify whole classes of people with ignorant opinions.
Because I’m in this group, and it is very painful for me.
If your criteria for what issues to care about is “Will this cause society to collapse?” I’d say that’s a pretty high bar.
My sympathies I guess.
Since this is an issue worth caring about, what are some resolutions? Force or coerce the 20% into sexual relationships? Start making [URL="https://youtu.be/SC4K8vcPpiU"]these[/URL] again?
In terms of birth rate, I'm not sure how much of a problem that is. We had the "Boomers" and there was population growth, maybe this is some sort of natural correction. I mean, it's bad for the fact that there are fewer people replacing the old and dying, and generating productivity and revenue to cover their retirement and end-of-life years. But I guess it's good business for nursing homes. But in the long run, I don't know. I am not sure that "MORE HUMANS" is a good survival strategy at the global scale. Also, a lot of people are very clear about the fact that kids are expensive and many people don't feel they can afford them. (Of course many people can't, but have them anyways, and figure out a way to get by.)
Further analysis of the sexual end of things. So you have people IN relationships who aren't having sex, you have people NOT in relationships who aren't having sex, and subgroups of people who really would prefer to be, and people who are fine with their sexless lives. There were no numbers on those categories and I'm not even sure how you'd go about gathering them in a meaningful way.
People IN relationships: Economic factors and tech factors are meaningful. Economic factors~ while it's great that women have the choice to work outside the home, the inevitable economic effect is that cost of living skyrockets as capitalist entities understand that households have more money to spend. Housing costs, college costs, child care costs...it's all insane. Now it's not a choice, for most women. It's a necessity that we work. Unfortunately in terms of relationships, there are a lot of men who have not adapted to this fact, and taken up some share of the work required to run the household, most studies show that women get far, far less personal time than men do. I've heard countless men say that they NEED time to unwind when they get home from work, and they NEED time to decompress and be alone doing their man things before bed, but they really are not very interested in what their wives need. If that's how it is in your household, your wife isn't going to be all that motivated or interested in getting freaky once you both finally climb into bed. She's going to be exhausted, and possibly also resentful. Tech factors~ Screens. Whether it's people spending time obsessing over video games, striking up affairs online, being paranoid about partners talking to others online, substituting porn for intimacy, or just laying in bed watching TV instead of having sex... You've got to be careful about letting tech rule your life.
People NOT in relationships: Well. Let's see...we had the AIDS crisis, we've had abstinence based sex ed in many cases. Some men are skittish because they can't wrap their heads around what consent should look like, and Me Too has 'em freaked out. (Almost understandably, since a large number of my encounters included the kinds of pressure and lack of enthusiastic consent that is considered quasi-problematic these days, but that was just "how it was done"...people didn't TALK about sex, that's just...weird and uncomfortable! I feel it's a bit understandable for a guy to feel like, "How do you even do this now?" and women are just waiting for guys to make a move but...) There are lots of social pressures that are making boys grow up questioning their own identities and self-worth. My own sons were caught between a militant father who told them to suppress their feelings and get into fights, and schools that preached the opposite. Online dating has brought in a bunch of new dynamics to things. Guys are getting bitter and angry and women are getting more and more wary of them, which is a vicious cycle we see playing out here in tons of cases. I know both men and women who say they wish they were getting laid more. Women have the recourse of "hooking up" which benefits some guys who are willing and able to play that game, but we often find it lacking if we try getting by like that for more than a short time. And rarer but disturbing, some men are getting so angry and hopeless they're turning to violence.
And then there are some who are just celibate for whatever reason, choice or circumstance, and have learned to live with it peacefully and be ok. Honestly in figuring out this whole thing as an "issue" I would like to find a way to filter those out of the equation. Because if you're fine with your life (legitimately, not in a fakey "sour grapes" way) then you're not really part of any problem, unless there are a large number of, say, women who are happy alone and men who are violently unhappy alone, and those guys are trying to argue that women should set aside what they want in life to make a man happy so he doesn't kill people. 'Cause that's just...well, wrong.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,699 posts, read 41,742,544 times
Reputation: 41381
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane
Stereotypes turn into statistics. It isn't ignorant to study the habits of demographics, it is important because we live in a society not a vacuum.
It is ignorant because you do not poll every single person and completely ignore personal autonomy to make differing choices. Stereotypes are nothing more than a lazy way to look at humanity for those who lack critical thinking skills.
Unfortunately in terms of relationships, there are a lot of men who have not adapted to this fact, and taken up some share of the work required to run the household, most studies show that women get far, far less personal time than men do. I've heard countless men say that they NEED time to unwind when they get home from work, and they NEED time to decompress and be alone doing their man things before bed, but they really are not very interested in what their wives need. If that's how it is in your household, your wife isn't going to be all that motivated or interested in getting freaky once you both finally climb into bed. She's going to be exhausted, and possibly also resentful.
Yep- I've often joked that the best foreplay is, "Honey, I'm sorry you had a bad day at the office. Can I pour you a glass of wine? Go take a bubble bath. I'll make dinner and see that the kids do their homework". Sex fizzled out well before my first marriage ended officially and it was mostly because I can't get interested in someone when I'm angry at him (unemployed the last 5 years of the marriage, alcoholic... I could go on).
In terms of birth rate, I'm not sure how much of a problem that is. We had the "Boomers" and there was population growth, maybe this is some sort of natural correction. I mean, it's bad for the fact that there are fewer people replacing the old and dying, and generating productivity and revenue to cover their retirement and end-of-life years. But I guess it's good business for nursing homes. But in the long run, I don't know. I am not sure that "MORE HUMANS" is a good survival strategy at the global scale. Also, a lot of people are very clear about the fact that kids are expensive and many people don't feel they can afford them. (Of course many people can't, but have them anyways, and figure out a way to get by.)
Further analysis of the sexual end of things. So you have people IN relationships who aren't having sex, you have people NOT in relationships who aren't having sex, and subgroups of people who really would prefer to be, and people who are fine with their sexless lives. There were no numbers on those categories and I'm not even sure how you'd go about gathering them in a meaningful way.
People IN relationships: Economic factors and tech factors are meaningful. Economic factors~ while it's great that women have the choice to work outside the home, the inevitable economic effect is that cost of living skyrockets as capitalist entities understand that households have more money to spend. Housing costs, college costs, child care costs...it's all insane. Now it's not a choice, for most women. It's a necessity that we work. Unfortunately in terms of relationships, there are a lot of men who have not adapted to this fact, and taken up some share of the work required to run the household, most studies show that women get far, far less personal time than men do. I've heard countless men say that they NEED time to unwind when they get home from work, and they NEED time to decompress and be alone doing their man things before bed, but they really are not very interested in what their wives need. If that's how it is in your household, your wife isn't going to be all that motivated or interested in getting freaky once you both finally climb into bed. She's going to be exhausted, and possibly also resentful. Tech factors~ Screens. Whether it's people spending time obsessing over video games, striking up affairs online, being paranoid about partners talking to others online, substituting porn for intimacy, or just laying in bed watching TV instead of having sex... You've got to be careful about letting tech rule your life.
People NOT in relationships: Well. Let's see...we had the AIDS crisis, we've had abstinence based sex ed in many cases. Some men are skittish because they can't wrap their heads around what consent should look like, and Me Too has 'em freaked out. (Almost understandably, since a large number of my encounters included the kinds of pressure and lack of enthusiastic consent that is considered quasi-problematic these days, but that was just "how it was done"...people didn't TALK about sex, that's just...weird and uncomfortable! I feel it's a bit understandable for a guy to feel like, "How do you even do this now?" and women are just waiting for guys to make a move but...) There are lots of social pressures that are making boys grow up questioning their own identities and self-worth. My own sons were caught between a militant father who told them to suppress their feelings and get into fights, and schools that preached the opposite. Online dating has brought in a bunch of new dynamics to things. Guys are getting bitter and angry and women are getting more and more wary of them, which is a vicious cycle we see playing out here in tons of cases. I know both men and women who say they wish they were getting laid more. Women have the recourse of "hooking up" which benefits some guys who are willing and able to play that game, but we often find it lacking if we try getting by like that for more than a short time. And rarer but disturbing, some men are getting so angry and hopeless they're turning to violence.
And then there are some who are just celibate for whatever reason, choice or circumstance, and have learned to live with it peacefully and be ok. Honestly in figuring out this whole thing as an "issue" I would like to find a way to filter those out of the equation. Because if you're fine with your life (legitimately, not in a fakey "sour grapes" way) then you're not really part of any problem, unless there are a large number of, say, women who are happy alone and men who are violently unhappy alone, and those guys are trying to argue that women should set aside what they want in life to make a man happy so he doesn't kill people. 'Cause that's just...well, wrong.
Just because people give up doesn't mean they should be excluded from statistics and demographic studies. A lot of Americans have resigned themselves to low pay, doesn't mean low pay isn't a problem.
And yes, some people don't care about societal issues. Those people are free to refrain from discussing them, rather than complain about studies and assert their meaningless view that "nothing matters except individuals".
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,962,945 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthisle
Just because people give up doesn't mean they should be excluded from statistics and demographic studies. A lot of Americans have resigned themselves to low pay, doesn't mean low pay isn't a problem.
Hmmn, I can see either way. There is a good reason why people not looking for employment aren't counted as unemployed. If you opt out of the game, and aren't looking, you're almost never going to find it (a job or a relationship). If you remove yourself from the pool, it doesn't make much sense to analyze you as part of the pool.
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