Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Just ran across this line on Reddit and it clicked with me pretty hard. It really resonates with a lot of the experiences I’ve had. Also means I haven’t been nearly as good at hiding my cards with my crushes as I thought I was, though in certain situations it’s not like my tells have been hard to pick up on.
Any thoughts? Disagreements?
I like this, I can relate, very much at the moment.
But I over think and wonder if he's confused. I like him but I haven't decided I want to move forward with him. Does it mean if he is confused that I don't like him? Even though I like this, maybe it's only accurate for women wondering if men like them. . .
I like this, I can relate, very much at the moment.
But I over think and wonder if he's confused. I like him but I haven't decided I want to move forward with him. Does it mean if he is confused that I don't like him? Even though I like this, maybe it's only accurate for women wondering if men like them. . .
Uh. I'm a guy who likes women and I've felt this way many, many times. But, maybe in a different way. My confusion has been in "I saw ways I thought she was interested, but she turned me down." From what you're saying...you like him but haven't decided if you want to move forward? That makes no sense to me, as a guy. If I like a girl, I'd be willing to move forward with her, to get to know her more in a romantic context, meaning, we're both clear that a relationship is in the cards, and the viability of such a relationship is what we'd be working towards as we get to know each other better. But it sounds like your confusion is all internal..."I like him, but I'm not sure if I want to move forward with him yet, so if he asks I'm going to say 'No.'"
Maybe that has led to a lot of the false positives I've gotten? I've always heard...if she's interested and you don't move, you'll lose your shot because she's going to get tired of waiting for you to grow the balls to ask, or maybe decide that your lack of initiative means you're not interested...either way, she loses interest. So, except for early on in my school years, I've tended to move quickly, within 2-3 meetings. But you seem to be saying here...if I move too quickly, I could lose my shot too because she's not ready for me to ask her out? That's just damn perplexing. How the hell am I supposed to know what the sweet spot is?
This may or may not show high interest in someone. And, the really shy quiet woman who rarely speaks to you may have a very high interest in you but not showing it.
The confusion arises from not knowing if someone flirting and talking to you is showing romantic interest or just friendship interest. What a lot of woman don't know is when a woman smiles, flirts, laughs etc around a guy makes her stand out and gets his attention. To a guy, he will often read it as a prelude to physical affection, the next step. Because 99% of women around him are not acting like that.
However to a woman, it's 99% probable she is just being friendly and not making any romantic gesture or advance, whatsoever. To her, it's how you hang with a guy friend, without romantic intent. Guys become confused because they don't know how a woman shows romantic interest. Because it happens so rarely.
That's why I say guys should not look for or expect a romantic advance from a woman, even if she has high interest. Women will rarely make an overt romantic advance. This is because they usually have a high interest, but not a romantic interest that quickly and so early, whereas guys can have romantic interest right off. Thus a woman can have high interest that isn't romantic yet. Women need time to feel romantic. Guys don't.
This is confusing for a guy because is her behavior friendship interest or hidden romantic interest? Most guys don't know woman are like that. His feelings are already romantic. Hers is not, it's just a high interest. What the guy needs to do, IF he has romantic feelings, and can't tell what her feelings are, is assume she doesn't have romantic feelings yet, and do things together that can make her romantic feelings safe to come out, and at her pace.
When her romantic feelings grow, they will slowly, as she learns to open up and trust him. This allows her to feel SAFE to let her core love feelings out, so to speak, which is what she needs to let core love feelings come forth that is kept in a lock box, so to speak. When she has a high interest to start with, that isn't romantic yet, the guy needs to provide for her to get closer to him at her pace, having fun together, sharing and earning her trust- that her feelings are SAFE with him. That's when her romantic feelings develop. That's why it's slower. That's why guys get confused. They need to understand her romantic feelings take time.
"It's 99% probable she is just being friendly and not making any romantic gesture or advance, whatsoever. To her, it's how you hang with a guy friend, without romantic intent."
Great...at least that makes it less confusing if I think there's interest. Because, if I think I'm seeing interest...99% chance not? At least that demystifies my rejections. How the hell are you supposed to know then?
"This is because they usually have a high interest, but not a romantic interest that quickly and so early..."
What in the world is the difference? Is one friend-interest, and once that's in place, romantic-interest develops? Because I don't buy that AT ALL, through copious personal experience.
"What the guy needs to do...is do things together that can make her romantic feelings safe to come out, and at her pace."
Like...what? Seems to me there's two contexts a guy and a girl can "do things" together socially...hang out as friends, or hang out on a date. If it's not a date...as in, she says "No" when you ask her if she wants to go to a movie/get a cup of coffee/go to a football game/go to a museum/come over and play video games/go out to dinner/go a see a show/go dancing/any of the other things that have gotten me shot down, it's gotta be as friends? How do you avoid being stuck in the friendzone ("Oh, you're so sweet! You're like a brother!") or tossed out with the trash ("Ugh, he's into me, but he doesn't get that I don't want to date him...now I'm going to have to shoot him down when he asks")?
What you're describing seems so, so foreign to me. I've always likened dating to a game of chess. Except, I have no idea of the rules, no idea what the pieces do. And I sit down to play against an attractive woman, who expects a man of my age to be able to play and keep up with her. And when I make an illegal move...which is early and often...she dumps the board over and stalks off, leaving me to wonder how what I did was wrong. And to extend the metaphor some...I come places like here and say, "Here's the move I made, what did I do wrong?" and the drift is..."Don't overthink the game, just get out there and play another." Very frustrating.
What you're doing here is at least showing me some of the possible moves and strategies. I just don't understand them. I don't get this game at all.
Uh. I'm a guy who likes women and I've felt this way many, many times. But, maybe in a different way. My confusion has been in "I saw ways I thought she was interested, but she turned me down." From what you're saying...you like him but haven't decided if you want to move forward? That makes no sense to me, as a guy. If I like a girl, I'd be willing to move forward with her, to get to know her more in a romantic context, meaning, we're both clear that a relationship is in the cards, and the viability of such a relationship is what we'd be working towards as we get to know each other better. But it sounds like your confusion is all internal..."I like him, but I'm not sure if I want to move forward with him yet, so if he asks I'm going to say 'No.'"
Maybe that has led to a lot of the false positives I've gotten? I've always heard...if she's interested and you don't move, you'll lose your shot because she's going to get tired of waiting for you to grow the balls to ask, or maybe decide that your lack of initiative means you're not interested...either way, she loses interest. So, except for early on in my school years, I've tended to move quickly, within 2-3 meetings. But you seem to be saying here...if I move too quickly, I could lose my shot too because she's not ready for me to ask her out? That's just damn perplexing. How the hell am I supposed to know what the sweet spot is?
There's probably not a sweet spot. There is a chance that if you have to find a sweet spot, she's probably not that into you to begin with. I've seen women pine for years for men they are into. Hoping against the odds he'll come around.
What you're describing seems so, so foreign to me. I've always likened dating to a game of chess. Except, I have no idea of the rules, no idea what the pieces do. And I sit down to play against an attractive woman, who expects a man of my age to be able to play and keep up with her. And when I make an illegal move...which is early and often...she dumps the board over and stalks off, leaving me to wonder how what I did was wrong. And to extend the metaphor some...I come places like here and say, "Here's the move I made, what did I do wrong?" and the drift is..."Don't overthink the game, just get out there and play another." Very frustrating.
What you're doing here is at least showing me some of the possible moves and strategies. I just don't understand them. I don't get this game at all.
If it feels like a game, then I would get out. Forget the attractive woman, find a Plain Jane. It will feel less like game-playing.
Maybe I'm just...not the kind of person who's cut out for this sort of thing, with my blatant and profound confusion and inability to grasp what comes so easily, almost instinctively, to so many people. I mean, we all have things we're good at and things we suck at right? And we all know that it's usually a waste of time to invest in things we suck at? Peter Dinklage, brilliant actor. How much success would he ever have at basketball? If he had spent all the time in the world...practicing at basketball, practicing dribbling, free throws, etc....would he have ever been any good at all at basketball? No. And I feel like I just really, really suck at this, dating. Trying to out-think it hasn't worked, trying to study it hasn't worked, trying to outwork it hasn't worked, trying to immerse myself in it ("Just get out there! Put yourself out there and go for it!") hasn't worked...just...ugh.
I just don't get it. And I'm afraid of what that means.
If it feels like a game, then I would get out. Forget the attractive woman, find a Plain Jane. It will feel less like game-playing.
I should have said, "Woman I find attractive." I find some unconventionally-looking women attractive. I've asked many out. I've asked out women who...probably weighed as much or more than me, and I'm not a slender guy. I'm not trying to say "They should have been grateful that I asked them out!", just trying to illustrate what I mean when I say...it's not the physical that I consider when I'm asking someone out. If we liked the same things, and I liked her sense of humor, and I thought she was intelligent (that above all, really)...I asked her out.
Uh. I'm a guy who likes women and I've felt this way many, many times. But, maybe in a different way. My confusion has been in "I saw ways I thought she was interested, but she turned me down." From what you're saying...you like him but haven't decided if you want to move forward? That makes no sense to me, as a guy. If I like a girl, I'd be willing to move forward with her, to get to know her more in a romantic context, meaning, we're both clear that a relationship is in the cards, and the viability of such a relationship is what we'd be working towards as we get to know each other better. But it sounds like your confusion is all internal..."I like him, but I'm not sure if I want to move forward with him yet, so if he asks I'm going to say 'No.'"
Maybe that has led to a lot of the false positives I've gotten? I've always heard...if she's interested and you don't move, you'll lose your shot because she's going to get tired of waiting for you to grow the balls to ask, or maybe decide that your lack of initiative means you're not interested...either way, she loses interest. So, except for early on in my school years, I've tended to move quickly, within 2-3 meetings. But you seem to be saying here...if I move too quickly, I could lose my shot too because she's not ready for me to ask her out? That's just damn perplexing. How the hell am I supposed to know what the sweet spot is?
I mean I'm not sure I want to move forward in a relationship with him. I don't have my mind made up to say no to anything he asks, I hope we do go on another date, I don't know if I would say yes to sex because I don't want to start having strong feelings for him. I haven't gotten to know him well enough yet. Same for relationship- I don't know how involved I want to become. I really am starting to like him a lot though.
I don't know if there is a sweet spot for timing when to ask for a date with a girl, etc. I feel there's a lot of truth to your comment about waiting too long and losing the chance. If you like her, ask her. I personally don't like waiting around. (That sounded bitchy, but it's true. The guy even apologised to me for taking so long.) I did not wait around, I went online to look for another date but did not actually follow through and go out with anyone.
Yes, it can be confusing for men. If a guy asks me out when I'm just not ready (I had the greatest guy after me for years but I was always involved with some jerk instead. Yes, I regret it.) I'm not going to go on a date. I may spend time with him platonically and might even flirt though. (Not usually flirt so much.) Now the guy in this example, I'd jump at the chance to date him. We live far apart (2000 miles) so that's not happening too soon.
Timing is everything and it's not always easy to tell. I'd suggest talk to a person about what's going on in their life. More important, listen. If they just got out of a bad situation romantically, they will likely need time- guy or girl if they truly had feelings for the other person.
My point is, a no can become a yes in time. Talk a little to see where the girl is at in her life before you initially ask. But if you don't ask (unless she asks you), the answer is always no. . .
"It's 99% probable she is just being friendly and not making any romantic gesture or advance, whatsoever. To her, it's how you hang with a guy friend, without romantic intent."
Great...at least that makes it less confusing if I think there's interest. Because, if I think I'm seeing interest...99% chance not? At least that demystifies my rejections. How the hell are you supposed to know then?
Like I said, guys get romantic right off, but woman need time (at leas some VERY good dates). You can't know what she is feeling so guys need to assume she is just being friendly. However, a women flirting, talking, laughing has more than 50% interest, but in her mind she is not making a romantic advance, and doesn't have romantic feelings yet. Unless a woman makes a romantic advance, assume she's just being friendly. You can't read her mind or feelings.
I found this helpful. All women you meet with either be type 1, 2, or 3. As you engage with women, just note which type they are:
1. low interest - they don't care to be around you. They may be beautiful but forget them. A waste of time. This will be most women.
2. 50-70% interest - these have 50% interest or more with you. These will flirt, laugh and talk with you but not always. You get a mixed message. You're confused. Because their interest is above 50% you can pursue them, but plan on spending time and effort to raise their interest in you.
3. 71-90% interest - these women are rare but easy to know. They come sit next to you, flirt, touch you, etc. They go out of their way to be near you. Nature does the initial attraction.
4. 100% interest - this woman is in love with you. She has found her man for life. This is a woman that was type 3 to start, as nature attracted her to you, and you courted her successfully.
Quote:
"This is because they usually have a high interest, but not a romantic interest that quickly and so early..."
What in the world is the difference? Is one friend-interest, and once that's in place, romantic-interest develops? Because I don't buy that AT ALL, through copious personal experience.
Type 2 women, even with their higher than 50% interest in you, place you, and all men, immediately in her friendship-only zone. This is normal to them, because that's how they've been taught to behave and taught not be romantically assertive. But she's taught flirting is ok. It's the man's job to be romantically assertive and they expect that. Therefore IF you have romantic feelings for her, you need to avoid her friendship-only zone and ask her on a date fairly soon. Don't bother with the confusion of wondering if she has romantic feelings, like I said, she keeps those feelings in a lock box until it's safe to bring them out with the right man.
Your job is to be the right man, which means dating her (hang out, have fun). Before dating her, be friendly with her yes, but only enough to where it feels ready to initiate dating her. That would be when you two are finding it enjoyable to be together- this can happen quickly and that's when you ask for a real date. You have to be honest with your intent, that you want to pursue romantic possibilities. You don't want to be just her friend. She needs to know that's your intent. However, she may really just want friendship, and if so, that's ok because now you know your status with her. But you then leave her alone. No more long friendly talks. I call this 'no date.no convo'. A lot of women enjoy 'male girlfriends'. You avoid that by asking for a date and she accepts/declines.
Even if she accepts the date offer, she still may have almost no romantic feelings. In fact, assume she does not and assume she is still feeling like friends only. Why? Because most women need time to develop romantic feelings (I'm talking falling in love, not just fwb sex). A woman wanting just fwb is very different- she doesn't want to develop feelings.
So to answer your question, a women will put you immediately in her friendship-only zone, and it is possible once that's in place romance can develop. But you don't want to get planted in the friendship-only zone and just hope it develops into something more if you have romantic interest. It's the guys job to make romance happen. Once it's clear you two enjoy each other's company, that's when the guy should move things towards romance.
Quote:
"What the guy needs to do...is do things together that can make her romantic feelings safe to come out, and at her pace."
Like...what?
Go on dates. Just hang out, have fun.
Quote:
Seems to me there's two contexts a guy and a girl can "do things" together socially...hang out as friends, or hang out on a date.
That's right. You are on a date or not. One or the other. Now hanging out as friends can change into a date right on the spot if someone makes a move during a friendship outing. That person is changing things from friendship to romance on the spot. That guy is taking a risk because she might only want to be friends. And if she doesn't want romance the friendship is over, because he just let her know he doesn't just want friendship. This happened to me when a woman wanted to kiss me and I didn't want romance. We were old high school friends. Her action ended our friendship.
Quote:
If it's not a date...as in, she says "No" when you ask her if she wants to go to a movie/get a cup of coffee/go to a football game/go to a museum/come over and play video games/go out to dinner/go a see a show/go dancing/any of the other things that have gotten me shot down, it's gotta be as friends?
If you have romantic interest in her make sure not to ask to do things as just a friend would. Like playing a video game. Now if you become bf/gf then you can do friend-like activities later. But not until then. It's the guys job to jump-start a romance if possible because she has initial attraction. Then afterwards you can be friends too. You do not want to give the impression you want a friendship-only. And that will happen if you start going out on friendship meetups. Don't do that.
This sounds difficult because chasing women is stressful. So never chase them. Pursue them with romantic invitations and only those with higher interest to start. Remember the type 1, 2 and 3 info? Most type 2 (50-70% interest) woman will accept to go on a date with you. Nature has already attracted her enough to go out with you. This doesn't mean she wants sex right off. But you always pursue (not chase) romance. Always. Unless you really just want to be friends-only.
Quote:
How do you avoid being stuck in the friendzone ("Oh, you're so sweet! You're like a brother!") or tossed out with the trash ("Ugh, he's into me, but he doesn't get that I don't want to date him...now I'm going to have to shoot him down when he asks")?
Like I said, you make sure you don't get into her friendship-only box and become a male girlfriend. Unless you have no romantic desire for her and want just friendship. Initially you can become friendly with her, and show her that you two have chemistry and common interests to pursue. But when it's clear you two enjoy each other's company, and that could happen quickly, that's when you must move things forward romantically and AVOID the friendship-only box. This is an all or nothing proposal from you to her.
To move things forward romantically you can take small steps. You might make a romantic comment and see how she responds. Remember you are doing this with only a high interest woman to start, type 2, who displays some interest signs in you. You don't know if she has romantic feelings or not. Doesn't matter. A romantic move forward might be a sincere comment like "wow I'm sorry to interrupt but your eyes are just beautiful, I got distracted". Or something like that. Then note her reaction. This would be a romantic advance that you sincerely feel. Honest feelings from you, not fake come-on. You are taking a risk but it's true how you feel about her eyes. Her response might be "well thankyou very much" (good) but if she says nothing with a blank face that's not good and you then know she's doesn't want romance. Always advance romance at her pace.
Quote:
What you're describing seems so, so foreign to me. I've always likened dating to a game of chess. Except, I have no idea of the rules, no idea what the pieces do. And I sit down to play against an attractive woman, who expects a man of my age to be able to play and keep up with her. And when I make an illegal move...which is early and often...she dumps the board over and stalks off, leaving me to wonder how what I did was wrong. And to extend the metaphor some...I come places like here and say, "Here's the move I made, what did I do wrong?" and the drift is..."Don't overthink the game, just get out there and play another." Very frustrating.
Yep it's confusing to know how to date, what to do on date, what are the rules etc. I had a lot to learn and still learning. Think of dating not so much like a game, but a set of social procedures/skills. I call these dating skills. And best done in proper sequence. There are three relationship phases requiring different skills at different times: meeting women phase, dating phase, and maintaining relationship phase. Each require different set of skills.
Also just getting out there and 'play another' is not good approach. If you are lousy at playing tennis you'll keep loosing again and again. Your goal is to play better tennis- learn the rules, develop physical abilities, and learn winning strategies. Dating is like that. Rules, abilities, and strategies. The good news is these are easy to learn.
Even though the skills are easy to learn and not difficult, it does require that your personal life is solid. That you are moving strong with your personal life purpose and goals. What no tells you is that this is dating rule #1. When rule #1 is in progress the other dating skills become easier. The purpose of rule #1 is that she must know you are ok without her.
Quote:
What you're doing here is at least showing me some of the possible moves and strategies. I just don't understand them. I don't get this game at all.
The good news is dating skills and steps are simple to learn and do, but not easy to execute in practice, because we fall into old patterns. These are the steps which are easy by themselves:
1. put your life goals and purpose first
2. decide what type of relationship/woman you want (that fits in with #1)
3. communicate #2 when meeting woman, and only continue with those who want the same
4. avoid low interest type 1's, only pursue type 2's and 3's
5. never chase and appear needy (no text bombs)
6. only use text/phone calls for making meetups (dates)
7. on meetups just hangout and have fun, never anything serious
8. avoid friendship-only zone by moving romance forward, at her pace
9. do not talk her into being in a relationship, just let the relationship happen
These are the steps which are easy by themselves but difficult to execute
Maybe I'm just...not the kind of person who's cut out for this sort of thing, with my blatant and profound confusion and inability to grasp what comes so easily, almost instinctively, to so many people. I mean, we all have things we're good at and things we suck at right? And we all know that it's usually a waste of time to invest in things we suck at? Peter Dinklage, brilliant actor. How much success would he ever have at basketball? If he had spent all the time in the world...practicing at basketball, practicing dribbling, free throws, etc....would he have ever been any good at all at basketball? No. And I feel like I just really, really suck at this, dating. Trying to out-think it hasn't worked, trying to study it hasn't worked, trying to outwork it hasn't worked, trying to immerse myself in it ("Just get out there! Put yourself out there and go for it!") hasn't worked...just...ugh.
I just don't get it. And I'm afraid of what that means.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but do I remember correctly that you are on the spectrum?
If so, maybe dating another person with same issues would be beneficial.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
