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Old 07-27-2019, 11:14 PM
 
793 posts, read 204,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RbccL View Post
So if seeing: “I don’t wanna get Me2’d” triggers me, it’s because any accusations I would have made would have been 100% true, (IME) and I don’t appreciate the side eye about it, the doubt and dismissiveness.

I don't understand the logic here. The two things are not mutually exclusive. It's nothing against you or any woman. Where does doubt and dismissiveness come in? How does my caution mean I'm doubting or dismissing your experiences? For instance, I think many women take precautions when dating someone new, e.g., a woman might insist on meeting a guy in public, not letting him know where she lives, letting a friend know her whereabouts and a check-with-me deadline...I wouldn't see that as her automatically thinking he's a rapist or something. By the same token, my being leery about asking out service personnel for fear of making her feel trapped or uncomfortable, perhaps even to the point that she feels threatened and takes some sort of action (whether I believe it's warranted or not) does not mean that I doubt or deny the experiences of women who have been assaulted.


I'm willing to ask out a woman if I think I might have a chance with her, but I'm not willing to put a waitress, retailer, bartender, etc. on the spot and force her to feel like she's going to be offending a customer by turning me down. 99% chance she's just doing her job well and JUST wants to do her job.
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Old 07-28-2019, 03:29 AM
 
7,669 posts, read 3,019,569 times
Reputation: 12658
I wasn’t replying to your post. If have a tendency to be unfairly accused of sexual harassment, then it’s agreed, you should be cautious.
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Old 07-28-2019, 05:45 AM
 
12,713 posts, read 10,034,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RbccL View Post
I think I know you, and you are being intellectually dishonest if youíre saying being accused of sexual harassment and assault is a real fear for you. You have the emotional intelligence to get to know someone a little before you take a chance with even innuendo.

My comment (above that I think youíre reacting to) is for 2 kinds of guys:
The kind who actually force themselves on women and are truly sexual in their exchange, but want to get away with it, so pretend they donít know any better and itís the womanís fault.
OR
The kind who are very inexperienced around women and relationships and have no real idea of how things work. They do not have a variety of experiences of their own to learn from. They are scared, they want to blame women for making them scared.

As far as women go? Sure there are losers! Sure there are liars! But I have actually experienced tons of it in the form of harassment and assault, I never reported anyone, it wasnít my decade or experience to know and see that reporting it and drawing attention to myself would do anything but make it worse.

So if seeing: ďI donít wanna get Me2ídĒ triggers me, itís because any accusations I would have made would have been 100% true, (IME) and I donít appreciate the side eye about it, the doubt and dismissiveness.

Yes there is a 3rd kind of guy, heís the one who doesnít worry about being accused by liars in his everyday dating life. Hopefully that is the majority of men, they just are represented in a minority here at times.

((steps off soapbox, almost trips, itís 5 oíclock somewhere.))
May I post this to my social media, please?
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Old 07-28-2019, 05:46 AM
 
12,713 posts, read 10,034,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RbccL View Post
I wasnít replying to your post. If have a tendency to be unfairly accused of sexual harassment, then itís agreed, you should be cautious.
If someone has that "tendency", that person is the LCD (lowest common denominator), and it would be wise to examine how "unfair" those accusations are.
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Old 07-28-2019, 06:43 AM
 
2,178 posts, read 1,719,751 times
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I think having these kinds of discussions is a good thing.

Thanks for your post.
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Old 07-28-2019, 07:07 AM
 
2,127 posts, read 584,158 times
Reputation: 1392
Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
So, which is it? Socially normal, intelligent, confident man, or scummy, creepy, stalker-ish man? People in this thread can't even agree

I'll just leave this here. lol

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-l...nd-you/2751966

Quote:
I am going to go a bit further than this. Wanting to ask someone out that you don't know at all based entirely on the fact that you saw her and found her cute IS creepy. The poster above who mentioned planning a project so that one can show up in her aisle is stalker AF.
That's a matter of opinion, as I have known married couples to portray their "aw, that's cute!" "How we met" story. In some situations, there was some planning on the man's part to do something to get her around a woman of interest.

However, this was something that was done probably in the mid-20th century where women were not as cautious, they were probably even trusting of men back in the day, but not as much as they are now....as there's been an uptick on crime against women, and as such have reason to be cautious.

When I would hear a 60 year old man's story of how he met his wife, I am like "WTF? Really? You'd get restraining order if you did that today!"
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Old 07-28-2019, 08:55 AM
 
793 posts, read 204,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
If someone has that "tendency", that person is the LCD (lowest common denominator), and it would be wise to examine how "unfair" those accusations are.
For me, the person who accused me took two incidents that 1- Were deliberately mischaracterized to appear impermissible (the physical contact in the complaint was completely work-related, but was made to appear sexual instead), 2- Had actually involved a different coworker and yet were ascribed to me, and 3- The most egregious violation I was accused of happened on a day that I wasn't even at work.


So, pretty unfair. Didn't stop them from trying to get me fired, they were mad at me for something completely unrelated to the complaints.


Look, I go out of my way to make sure that nothing I do or say is considered leading, suggestive, or broaching someone's personal space, up to and including Keanu-style hoverhands where applicable (such as reaching out to touch her shoulder to emphasize some point in conversation but holding short of actually touching). I don't touch women, I don't get in their bubble during conversations, I make sure to get out of their way if they're coming towards me so that they don't accidentally brush up against me, and on the rare occasion that a woman hugs me I turn it into a sidehug. Sometimes I get the urge to hug a woman at what most people would probably consider to be a socially appropriate moment (greeting or departing a known acquaintance or friend for instance), and I'll fight that even, leading to a flicker of indecisive body language that I know makes me look awkward. All of this can get even worse if I am attracted to the women. I know that all of this is probably creepy in its own way, being awkward and avoidant behavior, but I prefer that end of the creepiness spectrum to the other end.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:11 AM
 
793 posts, read 204,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisTown123 View Post
However, this was something that was done probably in the mid-20th century where women were not as cautious, they were probably even trusting of men back in the day, but not as much as they are now....as there's been an uptick on crime against women, and as such have reason to be cautious.

Probably more like both men and women knew that men could get away with a lot more than they could get away with today.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisTown123 View Post


I've thought that way before...hell, I've felt that way before, such as being avoided by women my age at a dance party while they sought out the good-looking guys instead (I had no problem with getting older ladies to dance, and I was happy to dance with them and have fun, but younger women would stay away from me in between songs, and one who I did manage to ask bowed out before the end of the song). But recently I read an article about just this concept. Pretty revealing. From the article:



Quote:
The fact that other people might be allowed to exhibit similar behavior – the classic “You’re not a creeper if you’re hot” complaint – is seen as being inherently unfair to someone who isn’t as conventionally attractive as a popular movie star...


...And there’s the rub: the idea that this is unfair. Because this idea relies on a very uncomfortable question: “who ever said this was supposed to be fair?"


Creepy behavior has nothing to do with objective hotness and everything to do with where somebody chooses to set their boundaries. And that’s what people seem to not understand: boundaries aren’t fixed and universal, they’re flexible.
Which shows why the Tom Brady sketch is ironically accurate. The woman gets to decide what behavior from which person is appropriate or not. She is allowed to set her boundaries where ever she wants, and she is allowed to move her boundaries where ever...and whenever...she wants. If she thinks that even Tom Brady's most boorish advances are fine, but that Fred Armisan is a creep for expressing his interest...then so be it, that's her choice to make. It's what I've been saying all along...if a woman likes you and is interested in you, you're good to ask her out in pretty much any situation, and if she doesn't, you're imposing on her at best and harassing her at worst. She gets to decide, not you.



Not worth it in the workplace, whether it's her workplace like in this thread, your workplace like the TSA agent who hit on Brie Larsen, or both of your workplaces like in the SNL sketch.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:38 AM
 
2,127 posts, read 584,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
Probably more like both men and women knew that men could get away with a lot more than they could get away with today.







I've thought that way before...hell, I've felt that way before, such as being avoided by women my age at a dance party while they sought out the good-looking guys instead (I had no problem with getting older ladies to dance, and I was happy to dance with them and have fun, but younger women would stay away from me in between songs, and one who I did manage to ask bowed out before the end of the song). But recently I read an article about just this concept. Pretty revealing. From the article:



Which shows why the Tom Brady sketch is ironically accurate. The woman gets to decide what behavior from which person is appropriate or not. She is allowed to set her boundaries where ever she wants, and she is allowed to move her boundaries where ever...and whenever...she wants. If she thinks that even Tom Brady's most boorish advances are fine, but that Fred Armisan is a creep for expressing his interest...then so be it, that's her choice to make. It's what I've been saying all along...if a woman likes you and is interested in you, you're good to ask her out in pretty much any situation, and if she doesn't, you're imposing on her at best and harassing her at worst. She gets to decide, not you.



Not worth it in the workplace, whether it's her workplace like in this thread, your workplace like the TSA agent who hit on Brie Larsen, or both of your workplaces like in the SNL sketch.

Right, a mature, non-judgmental woman will just say, "Thank you, I'm flattered, but I'm not looking to date now" and not grab a phone and call security, which is just hyperbolic for judging him as a creep for trying.

Quote:
(I had no problem with getting older ladies to dance
That's because the older ladies aren't uptight, plus I've heard older women admit that they'd WISH they'd get the attention now that they had gotten when they were younger. They kind of get nostalgic. They laugh at their younger counter-parts for being turned off by it.

If an older woman gets cat-called once a year, she's happy as a lark. lol
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Old 07-28-2019, 12:40 PM
 
793 posts, read 204,597 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisTown123 View Post
Right, a mature, non-judgmental woman will just say, "Thank you, I'm flattered, but I'm not looking to date now" and not grab a phone and call security, which is just hyperbolic for judging him as a creep for trying.

Sure, and that's a risk I've taken plenty of times, and would again if under the circumstances I was interested in dating a woman and I thought she had any interest in dating me...but only outside of the context of a workplace. Inside the context of a workplace, where she's forced to interact with me as part of the job, I am not going to take the risk of making her feel uncomfortable or threatened or put in the position of having to reject a paying customer. That's even moreso with service sector employees, who are trained to make me feel welcome and valued, so any interest I think I read in them can be attributed to their training. I've had a hard enough time reading social cues well enough to differentiate between "polite and friendly" and "interested" that I've made that mistake and asked out lots of women who turned out not to be interested in me. If I let myself (like I did once in trying to ask out a waitress) I'd read that sort of thing into service-sector personnel all the time.
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