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Old 08-07-2019, 10:52 PM
 
805 posts, read 206,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Dude.

You sound really fun. This is not the first time I've thought, "If I were single I'd be wanting to get to know you." As it stands, I wish I could actively help you, At Arms Length. Get into your head, coach you, give advice on how to attract interest, or match you up with someone great. My ability to do anything like that is pretty damn limited, unfortunately, as I only know you from like...here...but I just want you to know that for whatever it is worth, I'm in your cheering section.

Yeah, it's not the first time you've said something like that. It's all academic under the circumstances, but I do pretty closely resemble the type of guy I've seen you say you don't dig, appearance wise, though...tall, big-boned, sturdy, fair-complected, ruddy. "Nordic" is how I think I've seen you describe it. Eh.


Attract interest? Is that even possible? I asked a similar question a while back and wasn't overwhelmed with the drift that it was even a good idea to try to "attract interest" through my behavior or flirting or what not. The salient advice I got from that thread was "If she's interested in you, you'll know it; if she's not interested in you, leave her alone." I just figure...a woman's interested, or she's not, and there's not a lot I can do about it.



I read an article last night about 10 reasons a guy ends up in the friendzone...can't find it anymore, I read it on my phone and I've, *ahem*, cleared the browser history since then. But one thing that the female author(s) (several authors for some of the ten different reasons) kept bringing up was the potential that a woman's attraction can grow. Aside from the fact the authors seemed to be encouraging guys to stick around in a friendship if they like the girl (something I strongly disagree with to the point of calling it bull****), they kept mentioning how they would become more interested in a guy when they noticed his muscles (complete with a little written out "tee-hee" in the article to signify that they were aware that they sounded like teenage girls).


Now, I'm not saying that I think I need muscles. I'm well aware that those women clearly had a thing for guys with muscle definition, but that the concept could also be sound and be applied to women who are attracted to other things. Meaning...does attraction grow in a woman the more she gets to know a guy and sees his potentially initially overlooked attractive points. But, to that...I've never grown on a woman. (Mind out of the gutter, please.) So, my experiences have led me to believe that, for maybe guys like me at least, interest is immediately and irrevocably binary...either she's interested or she ain't.


And if she ain't, I leave her alone. I'm certainly not going to risk a stay in the friendzone waiting around trying to disprove my hypothesis.

Edit: Found the article - https://www.askmen.com/top_10/dating...friends_1.html

Last edited by At Arms Length; 08-07-2019 at 11:39 PM..
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:58 PM
 
805 posts, read 206,098 times
Reputation: 1065
Quote:
Originally Posted by homina12 View Post
Gotta add my name to the At Arms Length fan club of folks who root for him. When I read the 7 theme parks in 14 days in particular I thought that's not for everyone, but that's such a cool idea and a potential bridge to like minded women, who definitely exist. Not for everyone, but exactly for the right person. My oldest daughter and several of her friends, for example.

Anyway At Arms Length, you seem to be an appealing mix of traits and interests and you have a good story going. Keep writing it.

Potential bridge...well, not in the middle of the experience, I can tell you that. Theme parks are absolutely awful places for singles. Nearly exclusively couples, families, and groups of young adults. And a single man walking around a place like that...I got some scrutiny placed on me, from park employees and wary park-goers alike.


But, dating's not why I went to them. So I had fun. A lot of it.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:03 PM
 
805 posts, read 206,098 times
Reputation: 1065
And lest you all think I'm some sort of perfect specimen, here's a couple of flaws...compliments make me bashful (they tickle at discovered, addressed, but deep-rooted psychological issues with perfectionism and inadequacy), and I actually abhor the spotlight. So. Thank you all. But I feel bad for derailing the thread now.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Continental Europe
622 posts, read 111,621 times
Reputation: 1053
Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
And lest you all think I'm some sort of perfect specimen, here's a couple of flaws...compliments make me bashful (they tickle at discovered, addressed, but deep-rooted psychological issues with perfectionism and inadequacy), and I actually abhor the spotlight. So. Thank you all. But I feel bad for derailing the thread now.
Aw, modest too

Anyway, I'll stop now
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:58 AM
 
8,277 posts, read 6,090,529 times
Reputation: 5886
Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
Potential bridge...well, not in the middle of the experience, I can tell you that. Theme parks are absolutely awful places for singles. Nearly exclusively couples, families, and groups of young adults. And a single man walking around a place like that...I got some scrutiny placed on me, from park employees and wary park-goers alike.


But, dating's not why I went to them. So I had fun. A lot of it.
Really? Well that's pretty crappy of them. Who's to say you can't enjoy rides and other attractions by yourself?

But I am glad you had fun.
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:02 AM
 
8,277 posts, read 6,090,529 times
Reputation: 5886
Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
And lest you all think I'm some sort of perfect specimen, here's a couple of flaws...compliments make me bashful (they tickle at discovered, addressed, but deep-rooted psychological issues with perfectionism and inadequacy), and I actually abhor the spotlight. So. Thank you all. But I feel bad for derailing the thread now.
I understand. I myself have an issue with attention. Even when I'm on my best day, I prefer to be behind the scenes. There are very few ways that I can be approached without my "alarms being tripped".
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:57 AM
 
7,541 posts, read 11,654,985 times
Reputation: 8384
Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post

And if she ain't, I leave her alone. I'm certainly not going to risk a stay in the friendzone waiting around trying to disprove my hypothesis.

Edit: Found the article - https://www.askmen.com/top_10/dating...friends_1.html
If you want a girlfriend, I think you should cut down on reading this kind of garbage.

In any case, do you really want a woman who has such an arbitrary sense of attraction?

She thinks you're squarely unattractive and she'll never go out with you, but she sees you mowing the lawn one day or figuring out a calculus problem, and all of a sudden, you're a stud? How is that mentality going to affect your long term relationship?

How bout, "He seemed like a pretty cool guy and was pretty funny and kinda cute and the more I got to know him, the more I thought so and the more things I found we had in common."

We never hear that one. That one's just too crazy to believe...

Last edited by jobaba; 08-08-2019 at 08:25 AM..
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Colorado
12,092 posts, read 7,433,264 times
Reputation: 21748
Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
Yeah, it's not the first time you've said something like that. It's all academic under the circumstances, but I do pretty closely resemble the type of guy I've seen you say you don't dig, appearance wise, though...tall, big-boned, sturdy, fair-complected, ruddy. "Nordic" is how I think I've seen you describe it. Eh.

Attract interest? Is that even possible? I asked a similar question a while back and wasn't overwhelmed with the drift that it was even a good idea to try to "attract interest" through my behavior or flirting or what not. The salient advice I got from that thread was "If she's interested in you, you'll know it; if she's not interested in you, leave her alone." I just figure...a woman's interested, or she's not, and there's not a lot I can do about it.

I read an article last night about 10 reasons a guy ends up in the friendzone...can't find it anymore, I read it on my phone and I've, *ahem*, cleared the browser history since then. But one thing that the female author(s) (several authors for some of the ten different reasons) kept bringing up was the potential that a woman's attraction can grow. Aside from the fact the authors seemed to be encouraging guys to stick around in a friendship if they like the girl (something I strongly disagree with to the point of calling it bull****), they kept mentioning how they would become more interested in a guy when they noticed his muscles (complete with a little written out "tee-hee" in the article to signify that they were aware that they sounded like teenage girls).

Now, I'm not saying that I think I need muscles. I'm well aware that those women clearly had a thing for guys with muscle definition, but that the concept could also be sound and be applied to women who are attracted to other things. Meaning...does attraction grow in a woman the more she gets to know a guy and sees his potentially initially overlooked attractive points. But, to that...I've never grown on a woman. (Mind out of the gutter, please.) So, my experiences have led me to believe that, for maybe guys like me at least, interest is immediately and irrevocably binary...either she's interested or she ain't.

And if she ain't, I leave her alone. I'm certainly not going to risk a stay in the friendzone waiting around trying to disprove my hypothesis.

Edit: Found the article - https://www.askmen.com/top_10/dating...friends_1.html
It isn't so much that I find that look deal-breakingly unattractive, in particular I can point to several partners I've had who did fit that exact model of appearance. It's more that...I can see looks that I admire, and looks that I am, at a surface level, rather "meh" about...and neither one is going to prompt me to go talk to a guy, or desire him or pursue him.

So if not looks, then what? That obscure reference from the 90s on his shirt. Seeing him in line for a concert or a roller coaster that I am also in line for and striking up a conversation. Finding "ding!" rewarding little points of commonality. I made a joke and he laughed. He made a joke and I laughed. Starting there, moving into more meaningful conversational waters from that point. And then hey, later, I just happened to run into him again! Talking was fun before, let's talk some more! Want to meet up some other time and keep doing this? Heck yeah I do.

About the whole "friend zone" and leave her alone and blah, blah. Women like to be seen as people. Not goals or commodities. The thing that gets us mad about the entire concept of the "friend zone" is that cart-before-the-horse idea that the only reason you'd spend time talking to a woman, is to achieve the goal of sex/relationship. Which kind of says, you don't ACTUALLY enjoy talking to me, as much as I enjoyed talking to you...you were faking it? While thinking, "*sigh* Is this chatty dame gonna take off her clothes or what?" I mean, it comes off as needing it to be one thing, or nothing. Really, truly setting aside the agenda means actually engaging with that person from a genuine place. Which women at least know, has GOT to be the foundation of a good relationship. How are you going to spend years or life with somebody that you don't even like? Just because...sex? Just because...pretty? Those motivators don't last and we know it. By showing that you can appreciate the friend-level engagement, and it's not a disappointing consolation prize, but something you actually do enjoy, whether anything more is ever available or not, you also establish to a woman, be she willing, that a relationship (which many women do want) is viable.

Will every woman be interested in "more?" Of course not. But being zen about it and just making those connections for their own sake, like a friendship numbers game, but while actually putting some value on the friendships... Sooner or later, the dice roll lucky. If you spend enough time around women and they feel good whenever they're around you because you are fun to hang out with, eventually one or several start thinking, "Hmmm...I wonder..."

I am gonna come right out and say this, if I were a man, and a woman:
1. Continued to agree to spend one-on-one time with me.
2. Knew I was single/available.
3. Let me know that she was single/available.
...I would assume she is consenting to proceed in a sex/dating direction. She's an active prospect. She is not putting you in the friend zone. She has not decided that you're a "nope."

From there it's just a matter of continuing to create circumstances, keep a fun/positive demeanor, and gradually start getting a little innuendo, a bit of direct eye contact, the occasional signal that, "Hey, I see you as romantically interesting" into your interactions...and seeing how she responds. If her response is a favorable, smiling one, then it's time to ask for a date. If you get the sudden red light or "busy signal" then you smile, shrug, and coast on to the next friendly face.

As for whether the things I say are academic or not? Maybe. I won't be dating you, no. Not because of your looks but mainly because I am unavailable. But if I knew where you lived, I'd file that away, because I do travel and could wind up anywhere for any reason at some point or other. What I absolutely WOULD do, is I would offer to meet with you, have a conversation, and let you know if there are any particulars I see that you could work on, that perhaps you're not aware of and might be tripping you up. This is something I would happily do for any number of people I've known from here, because I see a lot of basically good souls who are stuck and who I wish could find their happily ever after somehow. And once in a while, I think, "Damn. You seem really cool. I bet I'd like you a lot, and I struggle to understand why you aren't finding connection, because I'm sure I can't be the only one who would give you a chance."
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:47 PM
 
805 posts, read 206,098 times
Reputation: 1065
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobaba View Post
If you want a girlfriend, I think you should cut down on reading this kind of garbage.

In any case, do you really want a woman who has such an arbitrary sense of attraction?


She thinks you're squarely unattractive and she'll never go out with you, but she sees you mowing the lawn one day or figuring out a calculus problem, and all of a sudden, you're a stud? How is that mentality going to affect your long term relationship?

How bout, "He seemed like a pretty cool guy and was pretty funny and kinda cute and the more I got to know him, the more I thought so and the more things I found we had in common."

We never hear that one. That one's just too crazy to believe...

Do I want a woman with an arbitrary sense of attraction...meaning, what? Are you asking if I want to be someone who is turned on by seeing muscles? Of course not, I even said that in my post. That's a big reason I don't go lift anymore. I didn't enjoy it, I was happy with how I looked and with my general strength level. If I was going to keep lifting it was just going to be so that I could appear more impressive to women, and I reasoned that if a woman was only attracted to me because of that then she probably wasn't going to have a lot in common with who I really am, since I'm not a gym rat at heart and never will be. (Meaning no offense to any who are.) If you mean in a wider sense...I'd argue that all senses of attraction are arbitrary. We are all attracted to different traits, though some traits are more often seen as attractive (or unattractive) by more types of people.


Do you mean...flip a switch and suddenly she's into me, as opposed to me growing on her gradually? I mean, it's the same difference to me. Either she's interested in me enough to want to go on a date if I ask her, or she's not. Whether she gets suddenly thunder-struck by Cupid's arrow or whether she comes to slowly appreciate me doesn't matter...either way there would be a moment of decision where she either finds me dateable or not. All of this is hypothetical, because I've never had either scenario happen. I haven't gradually "grown" on a woman like an initially-hapless male romcom character, nor has any woman's switch just suddenly flipped to the "date him" position with me based on anything they see of me. As a ladies' man/long-term friend of mine told me, I make women want to play patty-cake with me, not to date me. They want to be friends with me, have fun talking to me, hang out in friendly platonic encounters, even confide in me or be vulnerable with me...but not be romantic or sexual with me. That's been my life's experience with women, that's what my friend told me, and that's also what one other long-term friend told me about observing my interactions with women over the years when I asked her about it.


Maybe that happens for other people, the "mind changing". Hell, it happens for me, in my own attraction...I've never confused attraction with interest or, even worse, feelings. It takes me some time to move from attraction to actual interest. That's a big reason I don't ask anyone out on a first encounter...I don't know enough about them to know if I'd be interested in dating them yet. The physical alone isn't enough for me. But, my life experiences with women being what they are, that article surprised me with women describing going from neutral on a guy to suddenly wanting him, because that's never happened for me. For me, they start Not Interested, and they stay Not Interested...so I assumed that it was usually a hard-and-fast binary, at least when applied to me and the Whatever It Is About Me that turns them off.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:30 PM
 
805 posts, read 206,098 times
Reputation: 1065
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
About the whole "friend zone" and leave her alone and blah, blah. Women like to be seen as people. Not goals or commodities. The thing that gets us mad about the entire concept of the "friend zone" is that cart-before-the-horse idea that the only reason you'd spend time talking to a woman, is to achieve the goal of sex/relationship. Which kind of says, you don't ACTUALLY enjoy talking to me, as much as I enjoyed talking to you...you were faking it? While thinking, "*sigh* Is this chatty dame gonna take off her clothes or what?" I mean, it comes off as needing it to be one thing, or nothing. Really, truly setting aside the agenda means actually engaging with that person from a genuine place. Which women at least know, has GOT to be the foundation of a good relationship. How are you going to spend years or life with somebody that you don't even like? Just because...sex? Just because...pretty? Those motivators don't last and we know it. By showing that you can appreciate the friend-level engagement, and it's not a disappointing consolation prize, but something you actually do enjoy, whether anything more is ever available or not, you also establish to a woman, be she willing, that a relationship (which many women do want) is viable.


Will every woman be interested in "more?" Of course not. But being zen about it and just making those connections for their own sake, like a friendship numbers game, but while actually putting some value on the friendships... Sooner or later, the dice roll lucky. If you spend enough time around women and they feel good whenever they're around you because you are fun to hang out with, eventually one or several start thinking, "Hmmm...I wonder..."

Highlighted the pertinent bit. I'm fine with "putting aside the agenda" to be conversational and friendly with women, and even with actively trying to start a friendship with her. (Though I don't do the latter very often with anyone, male or female, and I'll talk about why later.) If I wasn't fine with it I would have stopped talking to women when I decided to stop focusing on trying to create dating opportunities. (The truth is, there's very little difference behaviorally between "Me Talking to a Woman To Be Friendly and Pleasant" and "Me Talking to a Woman And About To Ask Her Out", and maybe that's part of my problem.) But whether there's a difference in how I'm talking to her or not, there is absolutely a difference in my own mentality: either I think of her as a potential date, or I don't, and it's not because I don't see her as a person either way.


My experiences with the immutability of women's non-attraction to me being what they are, I've learned that my mental health is better if I find out her interest level in me as soon as I think I could be interested in her. Once upon a time I would drift along being friends with girls, hoping they might some day develop interest in me. The last time I did it led to the absolute lowest point in my life, a full-on nervous breakdown. It took me years to recover from it. And it wasn't her fault, it was mine...I failed to emotionally disengage my feelings for her when she told me "You're a great guy, and I just know that there's somebody out there for you, but it's not me." I just kept holding out hope that she might...change her mind about me. Though it's been 15 years since I did it, in the past I have been unable to hold "interest" at merely being "interest." My interest turns to being smitten turns to being infatuated turns to full-on unrequited love...and that is far, far crueler than any quick rejection will ever be.


Now, as to the "limited friendships" thing. All I can say is, I'm an introvert, social situations and social networks are very draining to me. Frankly I'm very bad at maintaining a lot of social contacts. I feel bad about it sometimes, I just don't have the sort of personality to give more than about 15-20 relationships the time and energy and maintenance that they deserve at any given time. If I add one...unfortunately, I tend to let another drift off. I invest my limited social energies into a smaller number of close friends and relatives, and I simply lack the capability to keep up with more without feeling like I'm wearing myself out. So, no, I tend to not seek out new friendships on a regular basis. Acquaintanceships, sure, but not friendships, and that goes for both men and women, young and old, romantically interested in them or not.


(That said, I have tried to make an effort to reach out to people from my past who have been important to me. For instance, last year, I reached out to and went to visit several old college friends who I hadn't seen in years, for no other reason than I valued their friendship and hated that I'd let it drift. I'm just not very good about doing that sort of thing, or keeping close touch with a lot of different people, on a consistent basis.)


So, for those two reasons, if I was interested in dating a woman, I tried to ask her as soon as I thought I might be interested, sometimes as soon as two-three engagements. I'm not interested in playing a "friendship numbers game" because 1- Investing in a new friendship is taxing on my social energies, and 2- I have a history of falling deeper and deeper in love with women who are friends if I allow myself to maintain any level of romantic interest for them at all, and I refuse to do that again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
I am gonna come right out and say this, if I were a man, and a woman:
1. Continued to agree to spend one-on-one time with me.
2. Knew I was single/available.
3. Let me know that she was single/available.
...I would assume she is consenting to proceed in a sex/dating direction. She's an active prospect. She is not putting you in the friend zone. She has not decided that you're a "nope."

From there it's just a matter of continuing to create circumstances, keep a fun/positive demeanor, and gradually start getting a little innuendo, a bit of direct eye contact, the occasional signal that, "Hey, I see you as romantically interesting" into your interactions...and seeing how she responds. If her response is a favorable, smiling one, then it's time to ask for a date. If you get the sudden red light or "busy signal" then you smile, shrug, and coast on to the next friendly face.


That list stops at #2 for me. I've never had a woman come right out and tell me that she's single, other than the one who rebounded with me (and later abused me). Women have wanted to spend time with me, they've known that I was single...but other than my dangerous exception, none have ever made any production out of their relationship status, unless it was to drop early, heavy hints about the fact that they were already involved with someone. To be fair I've never asked, either, absurdly, because I didn't want to creep her out even though I might be thinking of asking her out. But I'd found out the relationship status of all of the women I've asked out in ways other than them telling me of their own accord.


So, if what you're telling me that I can potentially gauge a woman's interest by her letting me, a single guy, know that she is also single...well, women don't do that. They either let drop that they have a boyfriend/husband, usually very early in our acquaintanceship, or they keep the fact that they're single to themselves and I find out their relationship status in a different way. "Patty-cake."

Last edited by At Arms Length; 08-08-2019 at 11:52 PM..
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