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Old Yesterday, 03:14 PM
 
7,719 posts, read 3,032,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
I would ask before kissing a woman, but not because I'd find it admirable. Indeed, I think it's silly...if I've gotten the wrong idea a simple awkward apology and a hasty "good night" should suffice to put the issue to rest. But I've read too many situations where an assumption was made by the guy and it led to a trespass against the will of the woman. So, I'd find asking if I could kiss her to be necessary in order to make sure that I'm not proceeding against her will. "Enthusiastic affirmative consent." If she hasn't said "Yes"...with no hesitation or trepidation...then the answer should be assumed to be "No."


If I ask such a thing, I might indeed offend her or turn her off with my hesitancy and caution, and might indeed "throw the whole atmosphere down the toilet." But if I don't ask then I may be sexually assaulting her, in her eyes. Between those two, I choose the former.


Re: Get the hell out there and try, If I have the opportunity to ask out someone who's interested, I will take it. But you said it yourself...guys who go around trying desperately to sow seeds of opportunity whether they're on fertile ground or not...not attractive.
There have been times when just going for it was not a good idea for the guy. I never thought of accusing him of assault or anything, just puzzled that he read me as interested. I’m not flirty unless I really find someone attractive, so the signs are there. If I’m not interested, ....I’m way over here. He had to practically lunge, and it was on the street. In front of people. No one gets it right all the time though!
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Old Yesterday, 03:20 PM
 
8,298 posts, read 6,094,099 times
Reputation: 5888
Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
Ah, so you're the one holding my face cards.
I thought someone lost those. Don't worry, I am keeping it safe for you.


In all actuality, when I was heavier and desperate, I was invisible to women. When I lost weight, I was pretty much chased. I gained most of my weight back (or even all and more), and I am still getting the stray initiations from women. Hoping to lose quite a bit of weight in the next month (for a flat stomach as well as losing my jelly rolls).
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Old Yesterday, 03:25 PM
 
8 posts, read 570 times
Reputation: 15
I see some people are making it seem like you canít have flaws if to get into a relationship and if you have any whether lack of confidence or whatever thatís the main reason you canít attract someone.


Tons of people with severe flaws are in relationships lol people make it seem like only well adjusted great people are in relationships and thatís far from the case. I never had much problem attracting woman but I attracted more woman when I was a mess mentally lol. I

Also the idea that the struggling guys here dislike woman or whatever. First off who likes all woman or men? I respect people who respect me and judge people as I get to know them I donít respect or disrespect someone , simply because of their gender I act accordingly.

Also biggest players I know who woman love are total misogynists: thatís not why woman like them but they simply donít tell woman the things they say behind their backs plus woman care more about how you treat them not how you feel about all woman
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Old Yesterday, 03:41 PM
 
829 posts, read 208,593 times
Reputation: 1070
Quote:
Originally Posted by RbccL View Post
There have been times when just going for it was not a good idea for the guy. I never thought of accusing him of assault or anything, just puzzled that he read me as interested. I’m not flirty unless I really find someone attractive, so the signs are there. If I’m not interested, ....I’m way over here. He had to practically lunge, and it was on the street. In front of people. No one gets it right all the time though!

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...i-can-kiss-her


From the mailbag article:


Quote:

Hi Jean,
Been a nice date. Like to do it again.
Does one kiss, or not kiss, to make a second time possible?
(Good luck answering THAT one. Lol.)
E.
...
Hi E,
The best way of guaranteeing a second date comes down not to whether or not you kiss someone, but whether or not you tell them that you’ve had a nice time and ask them to go on another date with you. But if you’re hesitating over whether or not you should kiss someone at the end of a date, just say: “May I kiss you?” (...) Sure, there’s also a chance that they’ll say no, and that might be embarrassing. But if you kiss a person who doesn’t want to be kissed, that’s sexual assault. Not sexually assaulting the people we date should be collectively understood as more important than saving ourselves potential embarrassment. People who don’t understand this should stay home on their own.
JHE
Et cetera.


If I had to guess I'd say what most women probably want is a guy who can read her mind (read: signals) and not have to ask whether she wants to be kissed or not. That shows he can pick up on what she wants him to.


But it seems to me that guys are notoriously bad at that sort of thing, though, especially socially awkward, romantically inexperienced guys like me. On the date I went on last year my date stayed...at arm's length from me...the whole night. So, other than a short sidehug at the end of it, I didn't try to broach any more contact with her. Maybe that's a point for me for reading her correctly. Or, maybe, she felt pushed away by lack of physical initiative, which in turn was inspired by her lack of welcoming body language towards me. Dunno. I tend to think that she came into the date not very interested in me and didn't see anything in me that changed her mind. But, I neither asked nor went for a kiss with her. It didn't seem like it would have been welcome either way, so her ghosting me wasn't a huge surprise...just a painful reminder that that was the high water mark of all the time, money, and effort I'd spent in trying to "get out there and date." A one-date ghosting with someone who wasn't really interested in me was best I could do.
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Old Yesterday, 03:45 PM
 
829 posts, read 208,593 times
Reputation: 1070
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJenkins602 View Post
I thought someone lost those. Don't worry, I am keeping it safe for you.


In all actuality, when I was heavier and desperate, I was invisible to women. When I lost weight, I was pretty much chased. I gained most of my weight back (or even all and more), and I am still getting the stray initiations from women. Hoping to lose quite a bit of weight in the next month (for a flat stomach as well as losing my jelly rolls).

If I can ask, what was your Before weight, and what was your After weight? Not now, but at the weight that you want to get back down to?
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Old Yesterday, 04:22 PM
 
807 posts, read 460,632 times
Reputation: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
But it seems to me that guys are notoriously bad at that sort of thing, though, especially socially awkward, romantically inexperienced guys like me. On the date I went on last year my date stayed...at arm's length from me...the whole night. So, other than a short sidehug at the end of it, I didn't try to broach any more contact with her. Maybe that's a point for me for reading her correctly. Or, maybe, she felt pushed away by lack of physical initiative, which in turn was inspired by her lack of welcoming body language towards me. Dunno. I tend to think that she came into the date not very interested in me and didn't see anything in me that changed her mind. But, I neither asked nor went for a kiss with her. It didn't seem like it would have been welcome either way, so her ghosting me wasn't a huge surprise...just a painful reminder that that was the high water mark of all the time, money, and effort I'd spent in trying to "get out there and date." A one-date ghosting with someone who wasn't really interested in me was best I could do.
That's a point for you reading into her correctly. As I said earlier, you would know if she was into you. Even if you're "socially awkward, romantilcally inexperienced",edit maybe too mean you KNOW if she's into you or not; if you tried to initiate a hug, kiss, holding hands, whatever, and she recoils from you, is she into you? Is further advances appropriate? The only time you're getting mixed up is if you are projecting your own desires upon her. If in doubt, ask or let her know your intentions. We are in an age of equality after all, the days of assaulting someone first and asking questions later is gone, and not socially appropriate.

Last edited by rya96797; Yesterday at 05:22 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 04:34 PM
 
633 posts, read 336,661 times
Reputation: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...i-can-kiss-her


From the mailbag article:


Et cetera.


If I had to guess I'd say what most women probably want is a guy who can read her mind (read: signals) and not have to ask whether she wants to be kissed or not. That shows he can pick up on what she wants him to.


But it seems to me that guys are notoriously bad at that sort of thing, though, especially socially awkward, romantically inexperienced guys like me. On the date I went on last year my date stayed...at arm's length from me...the whole night. So, other than a short sidehug at the end of it, I didn't try to broach any more contact with her. Maybe that's a point for me for reading her correctly. Or, maybe, she felt pushed away by lack of physical initiative, which in turn was inspired by her lack of welcoming body language towards me. Dunno. I tend to think that she came into the date not very interested in me and didn't see anything in me that changed her mind. But, I neither asked nor went for a kiss with her. It didn't seem like it would have been welcome either way, so her ghosting me wasn't a huge surprise...just a painful reminder that that was the high water mark of all the time, money, and effort I'd spent in trying to "get out there and date." A one-date ghosting with someone who wasn't really interested in me was best I could do.
Does the body language not speak loud and clear? If someone has a condition which makes them less attuned to body language (like aspergers or autism) then its understandable if someone misses the cues. But in ordinary circumstances, its not mind reading, its body language.

Leaning in, smiling, soft eyes, pink cheeks, batting eye lashes, eye contact, she keeps touching your arm, all that, probably a good sign you can go for it. Shes leaning back, avoiding eye contact, arms crossed, furrowed brow, probably not a good sign.

If in the latter case the guy goes for it anyways, thats pretty awkward. The woman is almost forced to either push him away or accept the kiss (so she must either assault or be assaulted).
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Old Yesterday, 04:59 PM
 
829 posts, read 208,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moongirl00 View Post
Does the body language not speak loud and clear? If someone has a condition which makes them less attuned to body language (like aspergers or autism) then its understandable if someone misses the cues. But in ordinary circumstances, its not mind reading, its body language.

Leaning in, smiling, soft eyes, pink cheeks, batting eye lashes, eye contact, she keeps touching your arm, all that, probably a good sign you can go for it. Shes leaning back, avoiding eye contact, arms crossed, furrowed brow, probably not a good sign.

If in the latter case the guy goes for it anyways, thats pretty awkward. The woman is almost forced to either push him away or accept the kiss (so she must either assault or be assaulted).

Body language speak loud and clear...in that case, yes, it did. I could tell that she was not into me.


But, I have had numerous other situations in which I mistakenly thought a woman might be interested in going out with me. That's primarily what I'm talking about, because that's where I've failed so often in the past...in trying to figure out if she's interested in dating or not. So, so often I've mistaken her willingness to talk and be friendly for romantic interest. Smiling, eagerness to chat, asking curiosity-type questions about me, laughing at my jokes and banter, showing commonality with my interests...up to and including her giving me her number without my even asking for it...and all have gotten me shot down when I've thought there may be interest on her part and tried to ask her out.

The things you've listed here...those are the sorts of things I was asking about, the "things I'll know when I see them" that are good indicators of her interest. And...well, I might know them if I see them, but the problem is, those are things I haven't seen in my life in my interactions with women. At all. So...what I have actually been doing all this time is simply seeing the most friendly social indicators I've received from women I've known through the years, and, because they're the best-case social cues I've ever gotten from women, I've assumed that the women giving me those cues might be interested...the classic "Ugh, he thinks I'm into him because I smiled at him and talked to him." I see now that there are social cues beyond those that I have experienced. I have occasionally seen them applied to other guys by women...for instance, I watched a woman walk up to my brother-in-law in a bar and hit on him (my sister wasn't with us) while ignoring me like I wasn't even there...invisible.

So, it's these kinds of cues that I need to be watching for before asking a woman out. That's what I was looking for in examples of what to watch for. (Sort of redundant knowledge, but it never hurts to shake the tree again from time to time to see if I can find any new acorns.)


Edit: I guess in brief, I'm well-attuned to signs of negative romantic interest through lots of experience. Not so experienced with signs of positive romantic interest, because based on what I've read of how women show men that they're interested...women aren't. So as a result I've mistaken polite and friendly interactions with women...which are my best-case scenarios in interacting with women...as signs that they were interested, when the women I've asked out really haven't been interested in anything more than friendliness and talking.

Last edited by At Arms Length; Yesterday at 05:09 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Continental Europe
648 posts, read 116,586 times
Reputation: 1079
Quote:
Originally Posted by RbccL View Post
And I donít find that to be disrespectful versus respectful, I recognize we have two very different attitudes, needs and wants. I picture you as the type who would find it admirable if a man asked your permission to kiss you, whereas just typing: ďMay I kiss you?Ē makes me cringe, and throw the whole atmosphere down the toilet for me.

@At Arms Length- These very different responses to your ruminations arenít contradictions in a way that should make you even more taken aback. They're examples and proof that youíre not gonna be able to ensure a clear path and green light for yourself, just like no one else gets insurance and directions.

Youre going to have to engage social cues to find out whatís best for each individual situation. The only way this is going to happen is if you get the hell out there and try. If you stay locked into your hypothesizing and introspection youíre not going to eventually gain dating insurance.

No one gets a manual!
Haha yes. I like to be asked for a kiss if he's unsure because if I don't want it I have to have one anyway unless I turn my face away in time or stop him. If I like a guy, I'm not going to mind if he asks to kiss me. Again, if I was a dude, I'd be asking women for a kiss the first time and if I wasn't completely sure about it, in light of all the #metoo stuff.
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Old Yesterday, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Continental Europe
648 posts, read 116,586 times
Reputation: 1079
At Arms Length, I was thinking about this thread earlier and remembered a story that makes me chuckle, wanted to share it with you... a friend of mine has a family member who met his wife and lost his virginity in his early 50s. About 10 years ago it was. Never had much interest from women, nice guy quite shy, not really that attractive I have to say, lived with his dad all his life and worked as a postman, he was resigned to not having a relationship or kids as he just never met anyone.

Then in his 50s he met a woman at his local theatre club that he'd been involved with for ages. They hit it off, she was in her early 30s and worked as a (wait for it) stripper (lol) this is for real. A glamorous, nice looking woman who was also very nice. They were friends for a while then they started dating. None of his family could believe that this woman would be interested in him and were frankly rather suspicious, they kept asking themselves what does she want from him? Except he had no money, no property and lived with his dad! She ran a business as well and had plenty of money. They just really liked each other and fell in love. They got married and had a child. She stopped with the stripping though. Lol.

I think of that story when I think maybe I missed the boat in terms of a relationship (I'm about the same age as you I think) when I see all my friends coupled up. I do believe that sometimes you just haven't met the right person. Some people might never meet the right one, but some just take a while to meet their person.
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