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Old 08-05-2019, 09:46 PM
 
791 posts, read 203,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobspez View Post
If you see someone you are attracted to just go for it. Strike up a conversation. If the conversation is working, get a phone number. Then call and go out on a date. If the date goes well, repeat. This may fail 90% of the time, but the more times you try, the better your chances of success. As far as what you have to be, just be normal, don't play games or try to impress. Don't be cheap or overly extravagant. Dress nicely, be groomed, smell good, be friendly, be honest, be enthusiastic and positive. Like attracts like.

There's the disconnect. Just because someone likes chatting with you doesn't mean they want to give you their number. Hell, just because they like chatting with you doesn't mean it's even OKAY to ask for their number. That's bad form if there's no interest there, and mere attraction on my part combined with mere conversation on her part doesn't constitute interest.


Besides, I thought part of the drift of some of this thread is seeing women as people, not relationship objects, and I agree. I've never asked anyone out after one encounter (except in situations where that is expected, such as in online dating-type scenarios). I want to know more about her than her appearance before I ask her out, and I should be able to have a friendly conversation with someone I find attractive without hitting her up for her number if I'm not reading any reciprocal interest.
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Old 08-05-2019, 09:59 PM
 
791 posts, read 203,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdieBelle View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
... accept the possibility that nothing you do will bring success in trying to date...
False.

Our choices affect the trajectory of our lives.

Right, and I get to pick the trajectory. But I don't get to pick whether I ricochet or penetrate. (Uh.) That has to do with the composition of the surface I'm impacting, and that is out of my control. I can lose 145 pounds, I can add muscle mass, I can revamp my wardrobe and hairstyle to something more trendy, I can improve my social skills and spend more time meeting and engaging with people of all walks and types, I can engage in new hobbies that open up new experiences and socialization options, I can improve my career to make more money, I can quit bad habits that stunt my personal growth and appeal, I can "put myself out there" and try to find and take opportunities to women people out...but none of that guarantees me anything on the dating market, because after a certain point I cannot control what kinds of boxes I'm checking for a woman who is potentially willing to date someone. So, if I'm doing all of those things in order to increase my chances of getting a date (which, I did), there is no guarantee that they will necessarily lead to success in trying to date (which they didn't).


I did those things for the wrong reason. Which is why I disagree with OP's premise...the things she lists are all fantastic ways to improve as a person, not necessarily to get a relationship as the title claims. It's true that the latter often follows the former, but it's no guarantee. There is no magic bullet. So, improving one's life should be its own reward, not a series of goals achieved on the way to the larger goal of being dateable. That was my mistake...not the things I achieved, but the motivation.
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Old 08-05-2019, 10:14 PM
 
791 posts, read 203,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJenkins602 View Post
I actually resemble this post. While I am not where I want to be in life, I am perfectly fine with not having a mate.

But then there are those types that will attempt to justify being "desperate" for a relationship either talking about "biology, evolution, or some kind of hormonal reaction (serotonin?) that comes from being with a woman (I'm a guy and I'm speaking from a guy's perspective...and most people I hear complaining about lack of relationships are guys anyway) which ironically gives demonstrates one of the factors in their difficulty in finding a relationship.

How did you get to the point of being fine without having a mate? I'm trying hard to get to that point, and it was actually your comment some months ago that jarred me awake and made me realize my focus was wrong (along with a number of comments along the lines of "You've asked out how many women without success? Yeah, just stop, you're clearly doing something wrong, and until you know what it is, just stop.")


But, I disagree with you on the second point. I think there absolutely is a biological, evolutionary trigger within most people to seek these kinds of things. I feel it. I've always felt it, since I was very young, even, being smitten by the girls at an age most boys want nothing to do with them. (Not that I mean a sexual impulse by that, which came later, but more...a desire for companionship, even that young.)


I want to be a good partner, a good husband, a good father. I know that's wrong, to desire a relationship that brings those opportunities, possibly without even knowing someone I'd like to have that relationship with. But it's how I feel. I did manage to blunt those feelings once, by devastating myself in the mirror several times daily, but that had awful, awful effects on my self esteem and self worth. And so I walk the difficult path of trying to foster and grow my ego and self-esteem every day while also trying to lurch my heart's desire away from my heart's desire. Admitting that what I want isn't something I can achieve simply by out-thinking or outworking it like it's just about anything else in my life is a big step; the holy grail is...frankly, not caring anymore.
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Old 08-05-2019, 10:22 PM
 
791 posts, read 203,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
What is funny is that it is not intended, most often, as either judgement or shaming. It is often the case that those who feel judged and shamed are feeling shame themselves. That might be a good place to start. Especially since we know that confidence, real confidence, is actually a requirement for a good relationship.

Some of the stuff you've said in this thread has been pretty back-handed and generalized.
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Old 08-05-2019, 10:43 PM
 
Location: The point of no return, er, NorCal
7,251 posts, read 4,690,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
And they’ll be right. That’s because the ironic thing is that all of this is fantastic advice for how to learn to be happy with your life as it is. Being your best you is terrific advice, but if your best you isn’t someone who women want to date then it doesn’t make a difference. The whole “Be yourself” is pernicious dating advice if “yourself” isn’t someone who would have much value in the dating market.

Example: Finding your meaning in the above advice. Terrific for dating if your meaning is something that is attractive...mentioned, there was getting out into nature, being a casual athlete, or loving the hound out of a cute puppy. All things that are widely seen as being attractive traits. But what if your meaning is fielding legions of painstakingly hand-painted Warhammer miniatures for tabletop game night? What if it’s cataloguing and photographing all 110 Messier objects through your 8” Newtonian telescope? These things may bring you great joy, they may be things that you are passionate about, they may be perfectly integrated pursuits in terms of your personality, but they are unlikely to bring much success with the ladies. In the end, if you don’t check the boxes of what a woman is looking for you are not going to be successful in dating.

So, I think you left off the most important thing:

“Accept the reality that after a point your attractiveness to women is out of your control, accept the possibility that nothing you do will bring success in trying to date, and choose to be satisfied with the things that you actually are capable of achieving through your own work and efforts.”

No one gets everything they want in life. For some people, a relationship may be one of those things they don’t get to have. Them’s the cards; them’s the apples.
The point isn’t to attract “the ladies.” It is to put yourself out there for *your* type, the ladies who would be into you. If you cast such a wide net that you make yourself available to “women” then it would be a tedious and fruitless exercise. And this lady, me, had no interest in casual athletes or dog dads or whatever. I specifically sought the very type you speak of as going unnoticed by the ladies.
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Old 08-05-2019, 11:03 PM
 
791 posts, read 203,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphysique View Post
The point isn’t to attract “the ladies.” It is to put yourself out there for *your* type, the ladies who would be into you. If you cast such a wide net that you make yourself available to “women” then it would be a tedious and fruitless exercise. And this lady, me, had no interest in casual athletes or dog dads or whatever. I specifically sought the very type you speak of as going unnoticed by the ladies.



Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
You're right, there are a few who do. And those have the pick of the proverbial litter. I've always wondered if geeky girls (or girls who like geeky guys) have a much easier time finding decent boyfriends. At the very least, I've never met a geeky girl who was single for very long.


Not one who was single long enough to ask her out, anyways.


I take that back, there was one, maybe. (Meaning, maybe she had been in between relationships when I'd asked...I wasn't exactly sure, but I know that she was relationship-free some time later). It was a No, and then the consensus here was that I should let that No ride when I had a possible opportunity to try again when I was fairly sure she wasn't in a relationship. "She knows you're interested, if she's changed her mind, she'll contact you, and if she hasn't, you're bothering her."
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Old 08-05-2019, 11:09 PM
 
8,261 posts, read 6,081,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
There's the disconnect. Just because someone likes chatting with you doesn't mean they want to give you their number. Hell, just because they like chatting with you doesn't mean it's even OKAY to ask for their number. That's bad form if there's no interest there, and mere attraction on my part combined with mere conversation on her part doesn't constitute interest.


Besides, I thought part of the drift of some of this thread is seeing women as people, not relationship objects, and I agree. I've never asked anyone out after one encounter (except in situations where that is expected, such as in online dating-type scenarios). I want to know more about her than her appearance before I ask her out, and I should be able to have a friendly conversation with someone I find attractive without hitting her up for her number if I'm not reading any reciprocal interest.
I wouldn't necessarily call it bad form to ask for a number if you have a conversation and the person you are conversing with is providing much more than one word answers. Also, not all cases when numbers are given involve romantic intent. (E.g. Same genders exchange numbers)

It's not necessarily objectifying if you ask for a number given the right circumstances.
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Old 08-05-2019, 11:17 PM
 
8,261 posts, read 6,081,871 times
Reputation: 5875
Quote:
Originally Posted by At Arms Length View Post
How did you get to the point of being fine without having a mate? I'm trying hard to get to that point, and it was actually your comment some months ago that jarred me awake and made me realize my focus was wrong (along with a number of comments along the lines of "You've asked out how many women without success? Yeah, just stop, you're clearly doing something wrong, and until you know what it is, just stop.")


But, I disagree with you on the second point. I think there absolutely is a biological, evolutionary trigger within most people to seek these kinds of things. I feel it. I've always felt it, since I was very young, even, being smitten by the girls at an age most boys want nothing to do with them. (Not that I mean a sexual impulse by that, which came later, but more...a desire for companionship, even that young.)


I want to be a good partner, a good husband, a good father. I know that's wrong, to desire a relationship that brings those opportunities, possibly without even knowing someone I'd like to have that relationship with. But it's how I feel. I did manage to blunt those feelings once, by devastating myself in the mirror several times daily, but that had awful, awful effects on my self esteem and self worth. And so I walk the difficult path of trying to foster and grow my ego and self-esteem every day while also trying to lurch my heart's desire away from my heart's desire. Admitting that what I want isn't something I can achieve simply by out-thinking or outworking it like it's just about anything else in my life is a big step; the holy grail is...frankly, not caring anymore.
Part of it is looking at the train wrecks of relationships. There are a lot of cases where say infidelity occurs and the pain it leaves. Also knowing the possibility of winding up with- say- a narcissist and the damage that type of person could do. Looking at the bad case scenarios of being coupled up with the wrong person and looking more into that goes quite a bit a ways to appreciating the single life.

And then looking at the freedom you have while you are single. You don't have to "answer to anyone" as you live your life. And you don't have to deal with head games, "trick questions" "tests", etc. You could have peace.

As to your second paragraph, of course it is biological to want and seek a relationship, I wouldn't argue with that. But desperation is a turn off. That is something I've seen over and over again. I'd even say there's a biological factor. The type of men who do well with women tend to be the ones who are not desperate. Anyone who can turn women on with his desperation...congratulations, you definitely got game.
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Old 08-05-2019, 11:29 PM
 
791 posts, read 203,227 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJenkins602 View Post
I wouldn't necessarily call it bad form to ask for a number if you have a conversation and the person you are conversing with is providing much more than one word answers. Also, not all cases when numbers are given involve romantic intent. (E.g. Same genders exchange numbers)

It's not necessarily objectifying if you ask for a number given the right circumstances.

It's more about me. If I'm asking for a number, it's because I'm interested in dating her. That doesn't mean I only talk to women if I'm interested in dating them, but...


Hm, just noticed something interesting about myself. Was going to say, in general, I'm not interested in starting a friendship with someone, anyone, I...happened to share a grocery lane with, or sit across from at a restaurant. I'm an introvert, I invest my social energies in a relatively small number of very close friendships and I have difficulty managing a larger social network. Which is true.


But.


Thinking back on my life, I am very, very prone to developing feelings for unattached women I become friends with. (And I have also stupidly developed feelings for a few ATTACHED female friends before I learned to control towards whom I allow feelings to devleop.) Does that make me...dunno, some sort of scumbag, for not being able to carry on friendships with single women without eventually becoming attracted to them? All I know is, I subconsciously rebel at the thought of asking a woman for her number so I can engage in a friendship with her...my instincts shout "Friend zone!" when I contemplate that, and my mind works to sort her either into the "Attracted to her" pile or the (much smaller, for either gender) "Person I would like to be friends with" pile.



Maybe I'm a scumbag after all. *shrug*
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Old 08-05-2019, 11:32 PM
 
791 posts, read 203,227 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJenkins602 View Post
As to your second paragraph, of course it is biological to want and seek a relationship, I wouldn't argue with that. But desperation is a turn off. That is something I've seen over and over again. I'd even say there's a biological factor. The type of men who do well with women tend to be the ones who are not desperate. Anyone who can turn women on with his desperation...congratulations, you definitely got game.

How do you, uh, deal with your biology?
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