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Old 08-06-2019, 01:33 PM
 
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No argument here. It goes without saying if you don't have fun on a date there's no reason to date that person again. But even when it looks promising there's no way to know if it will be fun until you go on the date. Some people seem to want a guarantee before hand. Some people don't want to ever be rejected. That puts them out of the game. There's major league baseball players that only get a hit once every 4 or 5 times at bat. Those who get a hit once out of every three times at bat are considered stars. You can't get a hit in baseball or in life unless you are willing to fail.

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Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
Fun, especially early on, IS A HUGE PART of a satisfying relationship.

Talking to a woman who spent about 10 years too long in a 25 year marriage. I am well aware that not everything is about fun. I never said any such thing. But dating can and should be fun. And one of the many things people on this board lack is that appreciation. I want a woman... but I don't do anything fun. Pfffft.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:25 PM
 
3,865 posts, read 1,789,327 times
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Originally Posted by jobaba View Post
Oh god, where to start? Lol.

For starters, socially ingrained things like male height and breast size. And I'm saying this as a guy who LOVES big boobies. Absolutely loves them. Eliminating a woman based on breast size would just be idiotic.

Also, society has traditionally groomed men and women to be 'apart' on interests. I really don't think this benefits anybody. And especially 'geeky guys' are often accused of not having any way to converse with women. Although as we modernize, I do believe male and female interests are converging.

Society pressures women to idealize male interests and pressures men to 'get laid' and other men to ridicule those who haven't been laid. All this, instead of ... oh maybe looking for somebody you might get along with if you were living together in the same room for 10 years...

This is just off the top of my head. There's more.

I actually do believe that subsequent generations (though I'm not sure how many it will take) will modernize their approach to dating and many more people will find someone who is close to being a pretty perfect match.
I don't think society creates our fondness for the traits you mentioned, and others, so much as it makes them a kind of holy grail for us or our partners to possess. Some really disturbed people (typically men it seems) see the world almost entirely made up of beautiful people and toads, with them being toads. I think all forms of media exaggerate people's real beauty through tricks like lighting and editing and having models dehydrate, and they grossly distort the importance of being that kind of unreal beauty.

The various media won't likely change, and I'm not for forcing them to. I think the change has to come from all of us putting male or female beauty in some perspective, from being a little more mindful of both what we possess or not, and what we appreciate in others, and how we think about those things.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:43 PM
 
7,526 posts, read 11,651,796 times
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Originally Posted by homina12 View Post
I don't think society creates our fondness for the traits you mentioned, and others, so much as it makes them a kind of holy grail for us or our partners to possess. Some really disturbed people (typically men it seems) see the world almost entirely made up of beautiful people and toads, with them being toads. I think all forms of media exaggerate people's real beauty through tricks like lighting and editing and having models dehydrate, and they grossly distort the importance of being that kind of unreal beauty.

The various media won't likely change, and I'm not for forcing them to. I think the change has to come from all of us putting male or female beauty in some perspective, from being a little more mindful of both what we possess or not, and what we appreciate in others, and how we think about those things.
The media has been changing and it will continue to evolve.

You ever see that TV show Married with Children? It's not even that old. Oh my god, the image that show put on overweight women.

You don't see that anymore.

Interracial marriage is becoming way more common every generation. Successive generations are making the world a better place for themselves by emphasizing the things that ... make sense. And that's the way it should be.

As far as your first comment, I agree. I see women do it too though. There seems to be a fine line of demarcation between attractive guys and unattractive guys.

For me, it's more like, everybody is attractive in some way, though I might not want to date everybody for other reasons. And I'd want to marry less of them.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:47 PM
 
12,735 posts, read 10,040,161 times
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post

Something I find very off-putting in a lot of guys, it's not just that dating isn't fun for them...it's this impression I have that either they are mired in misery and expect a woman to be the rescue from it, or they feel it's an emergency imperative to "get a woman" or they see life as a never-ending battle, a survival of hardship, and fun as a frivolous and almost stupid thing. They want a battle buddy, so that they at least need not suffer alone.
Yes. Amen. Alleluhia.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
This right here makes me think of one of the things that delineates attractive, from unattractive men for me. Of course...I have a certain history with a certain miserable man that makes me react to anything that reminds me of him, like pulling my hand away from a fire. But still.

I remember spotting an interesting guy on a website. I can't recall if I sent him the first message, or he sent me the first message, but we were talking. He said something like, "You probably wouldn't like me. I hate myself, and I hate life." Really just super negative. I was like, "OK then" and stopped talking to him. I have no time for someone who is suffering in the trenches and doesn't see a way out. I know that life isn't always great, isn't always easy, but no matter how little I had or how tough things were, I found things to be grateful for, I knew it could be worse somehow, and I tried to keep my chin up and hope for the future, crack a joke, enjoy whatever small sources of joy I could find.

Something I find very off-putting in a lot of guys, it's not just that dating isn't fun for them...it's this impression I have that either they are mired in misery and expect a woman to be the rescue from it, or they feel it's an emergency imperative to "get a woman" or they see life as a never-ending battle, a survival of hardship, and fun as a frivolous and almost stupid thing. They want a battle buddy, so that they at least need not suffer alone.

I understand that some people suffer from depression. I hope they find a path out. But this...it's beyond that. It is an angry denial of happiness. I'm not going to be with someone who makes enjoyment of life like fighting a daily uphill battle, or who expects me to save them from themselves. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt.
You don't need me to validate how you feel, but I understand why you'd want no part of that. But if you think this is an even somewhat common trait in men, what do you think happened to them? To men?

Regarding dating being fun, I don't know if I'm typical, but hanging out with a woman I already clicked with was always fun. Even if that ended short of what I wanted, it was still fun. Getting to the point where we clicked was always something I learned to call exciting, but which the word nerd in me knew was better described less glowingly. And I was never able to fully protect my self esteem if things went poorly before it was fun.

I'd have never told a woman I was interested in dating that I don't have fun dating (is anyone really that ****ing dense?) but there were times I really struggled to get to exciting.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Colorado
12,092 posts, read 7,428,877 times
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Originally Posted by homina12 View Post
You don't need me to validate how you feel, but I understand why you'd want no part of that. But if you think this is an even somewhat common trait in men, what do you think happened to them? To men?

Regarding dating being fun, I don't know if I'm typical, but hanging out with a woman I already clicked with was always fun. Even if that ended short of what I wanted, it was still fun. Getting to the point where we clicked was always something I learned to call exciting, but which the word nerd in me knew was better described less glowingly. And I was never able to fully protect my self esteem if things went poorly before it was fun.

I'd have never told a woman I was interested in dating that I don't have fun dating (is anyone really that ****ing dense?) but there were times I really struggled to get to exciting.
I'm not trying to say that it is "common" exactly, in men...nor is it necessarily less common in women. I think that there are some PEOPLE who are just very negative. It isn't just dating that is no fun for them, it's life. Maybe they got disappointed too many times. Maybe it's something in their upbringing. I really don't know. But not only are they having a bad time and looking to drag another person into it (often convinced that the addition of said other person will solve all of their problems) but they also lack faith in a bright future. They expect failure, anticipate it, and often bring it about--consciously or not.

I do not think that this is necessarily a majority of men, and again, it is also some women. I'm only saying that when I see or hear this, I recoil. I cannot wait to get away from that person. I've learned by experience that I cannot save such an individual and it will only be destructive to me, if I try.

I feel a bit guilty for saying that, as though I am judging the depressed as unworthy of love. Ethically, I certainly do not believe that. But it does point to sound reasoning in working on your own problems, especially any major psychological ones, before actively seeking a partner.
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Old 08-06-2019, 06:17 PM
 
8,275 posts, read 6,087,989 times
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
This right here makes me think of one of the things that delineates attractive, from unattractive men for me. Of course...I have a certain history with a certain miserable man that makes me react to anything that reminds me of him, like pulling my hand away from a fire. But still.

I remember spotting an interesting guy on a website. I can't recall if I sent him the first message, or he sent me the first message, but we were talking. He said something like, "You probably wouldn't like me. I hate myself, and I hate life." Really just super negative. I was like, "OK then" and stopped talking to him. I have no time for someone who is suffering in the trenches and doesn't see a way out. I know that life isn't always great, isn't always easy, but no matter how little I had or how tough things were, I found things to be grateful for, I knew it could be worse somehow, and I tried to keep my chin up and hope for the future, crack a joke, enjoy whatever small sources of joy I could find.

Something I find very off-putting in a lot of guys, it's not just that dating isn't fun for them...it's this impression I have that either they are mired in misery and expect a woman to be the rescue from it, or they feel it's an emergency imperative to "get a woman" or they see life as a never-ending battle, a survival of hardship, and fun as a frivolous and almost stupid thing. They want a battle buddy, so that they at least need not suffer alone.


I understand that some people suffer from depression. I hope they find a path out. But this...it's beyond that. It is an angry denial of happiness. I'm not going to be with someone who makes enjoyment of life like fighting a daily uphill battle, or who expects me to save them from themselves. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt.
Wow!!! Yes, I see that a lot. I see that with guys that are hoping to find a woman to "brighten their day" "rescue them" or "complete them.

It is not common for anyone to want to be involved with someone who is just a downer. To the guys looking for a woman to bring you out of your pit of despair, it just doesn't work like that. If you manage to get a woman while you are in your self loathing/depressive, melancholy stage, you're just going to be some depressive, self loathing, miserable man with a woman (that is if you do manage to get one).

And the emergency imperative to "get a woman", aka desperation. Chances of that working out is very slim in my experience.

We're better off getting ourselves out of that pit (if possible, admittedly extremely difficult and depression is a crazy beast in and of itself). Hopefully, there is someone who is available who is qualified to help if needed.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:37 PM
 
793 posts, read 205,443 times
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Originally Posted by TJenkins602 View Post
I had to face my fears. Mainly the fear that I was going to end up alone. I asked myself what I could do in case. Then I looked at what I enjoy by myself such as music among other things. One thing I realized is if I do wind up alone, other than a few loneliness pangs here and there, I'll be okay.

Background, As a child, I've faced abandonment and at some point neglect (likely traumatic because I don't want to give my heart or get close)

Another thing, I always have the fortune of hearing someone go through heartbreak. Watching, hearing, reading about the agony is one of the factors that slow me down to a crawl. Because I know that could be me. As a matter of fact, I actually feel their hurt sometimes. No matter how great I think I am, I could have the rug pulled out from under me. And then be left in pieces by myself.

For me, it took perspective and a realization that things could be worse.

Each person is different. It might require something different for you.

I just want all of us to be in a place where a lack of relationship isn't going to be very painful to us. Because we are not guaranteed a relationship. It doesn't matter how many lids and pots there are.

That's insightful. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by homina12 View Post
What is it that society does to make things difficult? I'm asking that without intending any tone of incredulity or sarcasm. What could society do differently, or how could dating look different or feel different so that people struggling to find relationship, or just to get a ****ing date, would have an easier time?

There was a big thread about that not too long ago...


And as an official representative of Those So Afflicted, I say...society should never be bent to serve the interests of the minority. I don't want society to solve my problems, because society works pretty decently as it is right now. Certainly something along the lines of "Everyone gets a partner, Or Else" would be in violation of free will. Laissez-faire, even if the "faire" part isn't "fair" to everyone.
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Old 08-06-2019, 10:04 PM
 
793 posts, read 205,443 times
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Originally Posted by bobspez View Post
I did say it could fail 90% of the time. But it's worth it. I guess you just don't know how to pick up women. Naturally there's got to be a recognition that she is interested in you, but that's easy to spot. The opposite sexes have a biological imperative to seek out a mate. It's in our dna. You sound like you are conducting a job interview. It's not that complicated. Maybe education and theories get in the way. If you find a girl attractive and you sense some interest in you it's always OK to ask for a number, even if you have only known her for 15 minutes. If you snooze, you lose.

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Originally Posted by bobspez View Post
Maybe people have too many expectations and not enough courage. Back in the 60's and 70's (the stretch from hippies to disco) guys were expected to chase girls, and girls wanted to get caught. You bucked up your courage and went for it and you failed more often than you succeeded, but you didn't stop trying.


Undoubtedly, you're right, I don't know how to pick up a woman. I mean, in theory I understand the possible processes, but in practice it's not something I've succeeded at. But your pick-up scenarios include the proviso of "she's interested in you." And that's the kicker...women aren't, and at pushing 35 I feel like if someone was going to be interested I would have seen that by now.



The approach and the asking and the attraction are complicated to me because I have no natural knack for the sort of thing. I've gotten pretty decent at simply engaging in conversation with any type of person (as long as I haven't gotten sloppy and already developed a crush on them), but that skill was a long time in developing...it didn't come naturally. But once there...I don't have anything that makes women want more than that. And, I'm absolutely wretched at attempting to navigate a dating scenario. I used to think I'd just missed my shots in my past with different women that I never asked out, but after major reevaluation of those encounters...I don't see that the women in question that I "missed my shot" with were actually interested in more than conversation or friendship with me. That matches my experiences in actually trying to be proactive in similar situations. It also aligns with input by two friends who have known me for half my life or more.



And sure, women want to be caught...by guys they want chasing them in the first place. I mean, I suppose being asked out could be an ego boost to them (I've been told "Flattered, but no"), but in the end, if she's not interested in me, I need to proceed no further than friendly.
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