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Old 08-07-2019, 02:11 PM
 
12,789 posts, read 10,050,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
I dunno. With the majority of male partners I've had, it's not a matter of callous indifference or not caring if I was enjoying myself. They just don't know what to do, besides the standard things that bring THEM enjoyment. It's more a matter of them just being too simple about it, blinded by what they were experiencing, and not knowledgeable about what really matters. I mean, one may note that in my post about what makes a man a good lover, there was NOTHING about size or stamina. But men are allllll wound up about such things.

I mean, lesbians report higher satisfaction than straight women in that regard. There is no form of stimulation that a lesbian can give to a woman that a man is incapable of. If it seems super mysterious to a guy, he could always do some research. I mean, we've got the internet now. Of course, some men think that porn is a good way to learn...and it generally isn't. (No, you fool, that particular motion only makes your wife happy if you are using it to scrub a dirty pan in the sink. lol!) But telling some guys to study and learn and try...the reaction I've gotten is, "Ugh, that's too much work."
What part of selfish is that not?
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Old 08-07-2019, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Colorado
12,112 posts, read 7,437,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moongirl00 View Post
Interesting points. I apologize about my misuse of sadist. I experimented with light bdsm and can enjoy some pain, very hard spanking and such, and it does take empathy for the other person to know how to administer it. So I used the word wrong in that context, youre right.

I agree, what it comes down to is if someone is selfish or not maybe? I think the guys I was with that I consider experienced, were experienced, because they truly enjoyed women, and women responded to them so well because this came through.

There are a couple guys that stand out in my mind as the best, and they told me their count was over 100. They were like masters of the art of sex though. Dominating but gently so, completely confident in themselves and what they were doing. They took control and were not like robotic sex machines but attuned to me and adjusted their approach based on my reactions. Stuff like that. I could only conclude they just loved everything about sex and savored it like you would a gourmet meal.

Then there was that one (different guy) that huffed off when I wanted to help myself out. It hurt his ego. I didnt appreciate that.
Regarding the bold, first paragraph there...yeah, I guess I can see where that might be true. I mean, I watched a guy in action at a convention last month who probably has a very high partner count (he's in porn-Danarama) and he sure as hell knew what he was doing.

But I also have had virgin men who were ready, really ready, and they'd done their homework and they, as you say, were gonna savor the experience for all it was worth. There was a point in my young life where I had a sort of ferocious streak and was really into snaring virgin guys. I was in high school, so it wasn't difficult. Honestly, they weren't any worse than any other high school boy who had done the dance a few times, and they had that adorable joy and wonder about it.

And the last bit about the guy who huffed off, holy crap, we had the exact same experience! LOL!

Ah well. What does Dan Savage say about being a good lover, huh? "Good, giving, game."

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
What part of selfish is that not?
Well yeah, you're right. I guess I'm saying it's more like they want it to be easy, to just simply happen. It isn't so much malicious as it's lazy. I can sympathize at least a bit...I'm kind of lazy myself.
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Old 08-07-2019, 02:34 PM
 
652 posts, read 336,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Regarding the bold, first paragraph there...yeah, I guess I can see where that might be true. I mean, I watched a guy in action at a convention last month who probably has a very high partner count (he's in porn-Danarama) and he sure as hell knew what he was doing.

But I also have had virgin men who were ready, really ready, and they'd done their homework and they, as you say, were gonna savor the experience for all it was worth. There was a point in my young life where I had a sort of ferocious streak and was really into snaring virgin guys. I was in high school, so it wasn't difficult. Honestly, they weren't any worse than any other high school boy who had done the dance a few times, and they had that adorable joy and wonder about it.

And the last bit about the guy who huffed off, holy crap, we had the exact same experience! LOL!

Ah well. What does Dan Savage say about being a good lover, huh? "Good, giving, game."

EDIT:



Well yeah, you're right. I guess I'm saying it's more like they want it to be easy, to just simply happen. It isn't so much malicious as it's lazy. I can sympathize at least a bit...I'm kind of lazy myself.
I have not been with a virgin, probably bcause I was in my 20s when I got sexually active. But that sounds sweet. It sounds like you gave them very good experiences for their first times and I am sure that has had long lasting good effects on them.

IME the guys that were inexperienced often were because they had serious hangups. A couple of them had erection problems. I helped them because I didnt pressure or act all ego hurt (like many women would), it was a relaxed cozy environment of just cuddling abd talking until they got hard. But then often they could not last longer than a few seconds, in the act. They confided some serious hangups, confidence issues, bad experiences, etc. Which were at the root. They werent selfish, just a bit too neurotic and anxious.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:05 PM
 
5,461 posts, read 1,358,473 times
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This is a very long thread and I don't have time now to read the replies but I agree with OP. I think women have sold themselves out and they are paying the price for it. They have sex for nothing in return. And they ARE generally wired for bonding over sex. So now what I happens a lot of the time is women go along with the FWB thing, hoping the guy will eventually form a relationship with them. I have seen this from women on dating forums. They spend a lot of time with the 'what is he thinking' stuff and usually he has been pretty clear about it.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Colorado
12,112 posts, read 7,437,635 times
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I just want to point to the bit, Grlzrl, where you say that women are giving sex with nothing in return.

With at least one of my casual connections, that is preposterous, because he was very enjoyable, and I was getting exactly what I was giving. I was GETTING good sex, I was GETTING a few hours of very enjoyable company and conversation...heck, he gave me food and sang me songs, as well. Neat!

I do not like the thinking that sex is a commodity that a woman exchanges for a man's commitment. Not one bit. Might as well be prostitution if that's all it is. In a good relationship, both are giving to one another sexually, both are giving their life's work, their time and love and affection, everything they've got to give, to the shared purpose of living a good life together. Building a home, perhaps raising a family. The idea that sex is something that a woman simply gives to a man, also leans heavily on the notion that she doesn't enjoy it herself. If that is true, for some, then it's a sad truth. It's not how I want to live. If anything, I now have the opposite...trying not to be graphic, but the extent and kinds of joy I can take in the act far outstrip what my partner is able to experience. Orgasms? Like, seven different kinds, that we know of so far.

And I've known plenty of men who fell in love, when a woman did not reciprocate his feelings, and when it was over, drove himself half mad trying to figure out what she was thinking or what was going on. I think it's a natural response to the feeling of heartbreak. And it can happen to anyone.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Moreno Valley, Ca
2,036 posts, read 1,322,617 times
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This is a great thread... and I have been going through a change myself in terms of how I think about sex without the committed relationship, FWB, FB and all that is in between. On one hand, I enjoy my single life AND I also love sex. So I am working on finding a balance that works for ME.

I think women should do what THEY feel comfortable with and thank goodness for the freedom to do so. People who sit in judgment and condemn others for their choices in how to experience sex can kick rocks.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:22 PM
 
21,037 posts, read 16,851,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Regarding the bold, first paragraph there...yeah, I guess I can see where that might be true. I mean, I watched a guy in action at a convention last month who probably has a very high partner count (he's in porn-Danarama) and he sure as hell knew what he was doing.

But I also have had virgin men who were ready, really ready, and they'd done their homework and they, as you say, were gonna savor the experience for all it was worth. There was a point in my young life where I had a sort of ferocious streak and was really into snaring virgin guys. I was in high school, so it wasn't difficult. Honestly, they weren't any worse than any other high school boy who had done the dance a few times, and they had that adorable joy and wonder about it.

And the last bit about the guy who huffed off, holy crap, we had the exact same experience! LOL!

Ah well. What does Dan Savage say about being a good lover, huh? "Good, giving, game."

EDIT:



Well yeah, you're right. I guess I'm saying it's more like they want it to be easy, to just simply happen. It isn't so much malicious as it's lazy. I can sympathize at least a bit...I'm kind of lazy myself.
Yes I agree with you. I have had my fair share of partners and while the guys who were as the poster described were great lovers, my current honey who has been with a small handful of women, is by far the best. He is a bit shy in the initiation department, but once we start he’s very confident, and enthusiastic. And since I don’t orgasm from intercourse, he does more than his share of the “work” to make sure I’m satisfied every time. Every time. I offer sometimes to let him skip that if it’s late and he’s tired, but he loves doing that for me. I also feel more comfortable sexually with him because I’m secure in his love for me. With the high number count guys I was already worried about when I’d see him again and whether he’d call before we were even done. Which goes back to the main point of why it is so hard for women to have and enjoy casual sex.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:29 PM
 
7,737 posts, read 3,032,095 times
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I can tell you that not all are "hoping for more". There is no more at the time, we aren't all programmed for the picket fence and bumping elbows eating hot dish on tv trays. Or maybe our needs change. Just like a previous poster warning that one of the FWB "might get feelings" --Well hopefully they both do? So strange that this is seen as a danger. Having "feelings" is in no way synonymous with getting married or living in a trailer with matching tshirts or matching range rovers at the mc mansion, or matching anything other than the feeling of enjoying each others company.

Some say: "I can't turn off my brain and have sex". Well luckily that's about the worst description we've had in this thread. It usually seems to take turns with one opinion describing the other views as 'wrong' or 'less than' or 'shady' or 'left needing' there isn't that with people who actually choose this. I can't turn my brain off and forget I have opinions and choices, so there isn't any picking out of things that we both will like on a daily basis, there's a lot of what will be best for me, finally! It only sounds selfish if you haven't come in second place to to other people's needs and wants most of your adult life.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:46 PM
 
652 posts, read 336,661 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grlzrl View Post
This is a very long thread and I don't have time now to read the replies but I agree with OP. I think women have sold themselves out and they are paying the price for it. They have sex for nothing in return. And they ARE generally wired for bonding over sex. So now what I happens a lot of the time is women go along with the FWB thing, hoping the guy will eventually form a relationship with them. I have seen this from women on dating forums. They spend a lot of time with the 'what is he thinking' stuff and usually he has been pretty clear about it.
The whole thing about why buy a cow if you can get the milk for free? Women are not cows nor are our bodies a commodity. We are not sitting on a shelf waiting to be purchased by the highest bidder, flaunting our chastity belts hoping some guy will find us worthy of slapping a dog tag on us and calling himself our owner.

Getting carried away maybe. But its a personal decision for each woman. Marriage is only one option, there are alternative life choices. Some women must be committed, but not all. Its not one size fits all and we need not judge those who have made a different choice from our own.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Colorado
12,112 posts, read 7,437,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RbccL View Post
I can tell you that not all are "hoping for more". There is no more at the time, we aren't all programmed for the picket fence and bumping elbows eating hot dish on tv trays. Or maybe our needs change. Just like a previous poster warning that one of the FWB "might get feelings" --Well hopefully they both do? So strange that this is seen as a danger. Having "feelings" is in no way synonymous with getting married or living in a trailer with matching tshirts or matching range rovers at the mc mansion, or matching anything other than the feeling of enjoying each others company.

Some say: "I can't turn off my brain and have sex". Well luckily that's about the worst description we've had in this thread. It usually seems to take turns with one opinion describing the other views as 'wrong' or 'less than' or 'shady' or 'left needing' there isn't that with people who actually choose this. I can't turn my brain off and forget I have opinions and choices, so there isn't any picking out of things that we both will like on a daily basis, there's a lot of what will be best for me, finally! It only sounds selfish if you haven't come in second place to to other peoples needs and wants most of your adult life.
Absolutely, especially the last bit.

And please forgive me if I'm over-active on this thread, but I feel that I've got grounds to argue both sides of the matter, to some extent, but the ultimate point just being--do what works for you! All of us!

I spent the years of my marriage fantasizing of living by myself one day. I'd planned to wait until the boys were grown and then probably leave my husband, because I felt like no one was ever going to make me a priority and I really needed to at least be able to do it for myself. I couldn't, not with him around. I wasn't just coming in second place, I was dead last compared to anyone. The kids, the man, his friends, his family, anyone. I did not feel like my needs mattered at all, and I was so very tired. I just wanted a space of my own, some peace and got-damn quiet. But I know that I also do need company, so I figured I'd get that outside the home, but I'd have to keep it casual so that no one would ruin my paradise.

I did not expect to form another serious pair bond ever again, to let someone live with me. Let alone to be considering marriage! And yet, over time and getting to know a very special person, my opinion changed. I was lucky, I met someone perfect enough for me, to change my mind and prompt a certain level of commitment.

And yet, we are nearly an open relationship. So long as we both feel that we make what we have the priority, and meet one another's needs, the line is drawn somewhere around intercourse, but even that is negotiable if we sat down and talked it through. I just don't think that either of us is really very motivated to do so. Neither of us believes that we've got the energy or bandwidth to do justice to a full-fledged secondary ~relationship~ so any such activity is, by necessity, casual.

Right now I've got one other...partner?...a dear friend, a woman, who has a general kind of consent from me for sexual activity. She is someone I used to be an actual girlfriend to, but now we're dear friends and "chosen family" as she puts it. It rarely happens, but we have fun now and then. And we definitely have feelings for one another. We've just managed to un-hitch that from labels and expectations and life plans and pressure.
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