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Old 08-08-2019, 09:55 PM
 
5,110 posts, read 1,751,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasel View Post
It is interesting that you started this thread because this has been on my mind lately. I think we as a society (mainly we older generation women -- I'm in my 50s) have failed young women.


For some reason, young women are fine at demanding respect in the workplace etc -- but when it comes to relationships, I see too many younger women put up with disrespect from guys. This "hookup" culture, the "lets hang out" texts at 10 pm, and even the fact that it's become OK to use terms like "hit that" or "tap that" is accepted. All of it chips away at women being treated like they are valued. I mean, why call out certain guys as "misogynists" and then accept this kind of language from your own male friends, brothers, etc.



It seems that drawing lines in the sand is now considered to be "prudish" or "pearl clutching" or something -- when it's just about asking for respect and not being used sexually and then discarded. I mean is it prudish when women spell out what's not acceptable to them in the workplace? If not, then why aren't these expectations spelled out in dating?



I am astounded at the numerous conversations on these forums about the "three date rule" etc. I dated a lot in my single years and only 2 times was I ever pressured to have intercourse. In both cases I said I'm not ready. One of these guys I continued to date a while after that and he continued to grumble, but he didn't break up with me over it. (We broke up because he moved.) The second guy, I broke up with him the minute he balked about my saying "no." Both of these instances were pretty soon after we started dating (within 2 months of only seeing each other about 1x a week.) I dated many, many other men who were OK with my pace. Maybe they WANTED to sleep with me sooner, but they didn't hassle me or break up with me over it.



I have initiated sex on the first date BTW, and didn't necessarily regret it, but I would say the relationships were definitely not completely healthy ones, and resulted in a lot of heartbreak because I was bonded.



My message to women is that there is nothing prudish, closed minded or wrong with waiting until you are truly ready. For God's sake people go through great pains to not put some food or drug into their body but yet not treat their body "like a temple" in this way.
But a lot of women use men sexually and then discard them too, don't they? Doesn't it go both ways, as oppose to society failing young women?
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:10 AM
 
23,707 posts, read 17,948,640 times
Reputation: 43727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly1983 View Post
That's a sad prospect. However, I do see most men in my offline life (men who are acquaintances, friends, family) choosing to commit to their partners, so I don't think it's true that most good men shy away from commitment.
Yes I don’t either. I find the opposite true.
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:11 AM
 
23,707 posts, read 17,948,640 times
Reputation: 43727
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
But a lot of women use men sexually and then discard them too, don't they? Doesn't it go both ways, as oppose to society failing young women?
No actually women do not normally do that.
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Old 08-09-2019, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
10,852 posts, read 5,928,582 times
Reputation: 8965
If you are programmed to seek a mate, yes, it can be devastating.


Me, however, well as it might go, the day they were handing that out, I wasn't in line.


Doesn't mean I don't face other pitfalls, though.
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Old 08-09-2019, 11:50 AM
 
Location: In the bee-loud glade
4,173 posts, read 1,933,075 times
Reputation: 8439
I spend most of my time here at city-data on the relationship forum. I think I use this site in an effort to make sense out of the pain my past choices and my past and present feelings about myself and relationships have caused me. The making sense most often occurs as I write; I've long known that I write to understand, rather than to be understood. So this place prompts self reflection. There are exceptions where I learn something directly that un muddies my thoughts (thanks Sonic), but I mostly learn from the act of expressing my thoughts.

And this thread is a big exception. As a man, I don't mean to endorse it, and please don't read any "you girls are so cute with your grown-up discussion" into my comment. I'm saying it has value for me. So thanks to the 5 or 6 of you who have really driven this.

On topic, it does seem that you face a choice we all likely face at some point, Carly, which is sexual commitment versus some form of sexual freedom. The benefits of each choice, and the costs, vary widely for different people. It does seem that you don't really want to say yes to sexual exclusivity, but the pain casual relationships have cost you recently make saying "yes" and pursuing a committed relationship more appealing. Does saying yes to seeking a committed relationship, and no to the costs and benefits of casual ones seem like the only safe choice for you? Could you be afraid to struggle to make the choice you really want work out?

Thinking back on my earlier comment that I'm here mostly making sense out of my past, for me the choices that harmed me the most in the long run were the safe ones I made out of fear. For what it's worth.
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Old 08-09-2019, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Colorado
13,267 posts, read 8,027,950 times
Reputation: 23887
Good points, homina, and thank you for your kind words of recognition.

One point I just realized is maybe worth making... And I'm sure that the mileage varies a lot, but being poly for a year did not mean I was having more sex! Weird and counter-intuitive, perhaps, but that was not how it ended up looking, which was one of several contributing factors to why I went back to a more...mostly...monogamous structure in my love life.

As the thing with the FB I liked so much fizzled out, I met my current fiance. What I'd had the most tantalizing glimpse of in terms of the kind of sex I wanted to be having, with the fling fella, I got in spades with my present partner. At the same time, I had a "quad" going on, where I was dating a married couple and another man (the four of us were dating each other, though the 2 men were not sexually involved with one another, despite considering themselves somewhat "heteroflexible.") But over time, it reached a point where the boyfriend in that group was always busy and not really present, the woman and I weren't being sexual with one another, though we enjoyed a deeply affectionate friendship, and I was only occasionally (every few weeks) having sex with her husband. While I'm deeply fond of him, our sexual preferences and styles weren't as good a match as what I had with the one man I was seeing outside of all this group stuff...the one I'm still with today.

I was devoting my Friday nights to the guy I'm still with now, and my weekends were taken up with social activity and spending time with whatever members of the "quad" were available, more often than not we'd stay up all night talking or watching movies, and the sex either wasn't there or wasn't firing on all cylinders. I felt a ton of pressure to try and "be a good girlfriend" to four people...but my needs weren't really being met in that way with 3 of them. So, I left polyamory behind and since then have put a lot more time and energy into nurturing my bond with my fiance...and in general, our sex life is fantastic!

I thought I had to avoid monogamy, to avoid the kind of control, possessive and jealous behavior, and even abuse that I was getting with my ex-husband. In reality I was just with the wrong guy. The problem wasn't monogamy, and it wasn't even marriage, it was incompatibility. I don't actually need to have sex with multiple people. I just need ONE that understands that I can love my friends without having sex with them, and that I've got social and emotional needs best met by many, and that I do need some space and autonomy. Well...him being a stellar lover hasn't hurt matters, either.

I had to know what I needed and wanted. And I had to be willing to ask for it. And lo! there it was.
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:51 PM
 
Location: UK
1,175 posts, read 297,760 times
Reputation: 1910
Quote:
Originally Posted by homina12 View Post
I spend most of my time here at city-data on the relationship forum. I think I use this site in an effort to make sense out of the pain my past choices and my past and present feelings about myself and relationships have caused me. The making sense most often occurs as I write; I've long known that I write to understand, rather than to be understood. So this place prompts self reflection. There are exceptions where I learn something directly that un muddies my thoughts (thanks Sonic), but I mostly learn from the act of expressing my thoughts.

And this thread is a big exception. As a man, I don't mean to endorse it, and please don't read any "you girls are so cute with your grown-up discussion" into my comment. I'm saying it has value for me. So thanks to the 5 or 6 of you who have really driven this.

On topic, it does seem that you face a choice we all likely face at some point, Carly, which is sexual commitment versus some form of sexual freedom. The benefits of each choice, and the costs, vary widely for different people. It does seem that you don't really want to say yes to sexual exclusivity, but the pain casual relationships have cost you recently make saying "yes" and pursuing a committed relationship more appealing. Does saying yes to seeking a committed relationship, and no to the costs and benefits of casual ones seem like the only safe choice for you? Could you be afraid to struggle to make the choice you really want work out?

Thinking back on my earlier comment that I'm here mostly making sense out of my past, for me the choices that harmed me the most in the long run were the safe ones I made out of fear. For what it's worth.
Glad you have enjoyed the thread, homina12!

Well I'm sort of winding down my dating activities lol (feels sort of pointless to keep dating here when I am moving to Spain shortly.) I'm not sure if I will be brave enough to fully delve into "poliamor" as they call it over there...I looked up a group but it scared me a little, but I will definitely be a bit more open than I was before about the kind of connections I am willing to make & how I will get my needs met. I'm not sure how any of that will go, but it could be worth experimenting, I think.

Last edited by Carly1983; 08-09-2019 at 02:09 PM..
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Old 08-09-2019, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Arlington, VA/Washington, DC
24,330 posts, read 34,364,513 times
Reputation: 33635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
There's a general lack of respect across the board in todays society.



You are correct. Many men, most men have little respect for a woman that would do it. Most men too are seeking a connection just like you are and sleeping with strangers or someone you hardly intimately know does not build on that connection. I call that connection "camaraderie".

I remember when my last wife of 16 years and I would sometimes go for walks or out for coffee or just doing some chores like grocery shopping. I always got a warm feeling being next to her, being with her. There was a sense of camaraderie between us. It was me and her against the world, she had my back and I had hers. We had our girls to care for. Unfortunately for the relationship her attitude changed. The sense of camaraderie disappeared and so did I. My best friend became an enemy, a clear and present danger. Looking back I am glad I filed for divorce as my instincts were correct.

Men need a reason to be around. A purpose. In todays world women marry the state, who needs a man? You have your own means or welfare. This allows lazy males to be lazy and the uncaring not to care. Men who care, good ones tend to shy away from commitment because they are smart enough to look ahead and what they see is not good. It doesn't leave much for anybody.

It is what it is though. Carry on.
I think you mean smart men and not good men tend to shy away from commitment.
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Old 08-10-2019, 12:13 AM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
8,463 posts, read 3,453,272 times
Reputation: 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dissenter View Post
I think you mean smart men and not good men tend to shy away from commitment.
You said a lot in that short sentence. A succinct description of a problem that has infected our society from the inside out. And it's not just a man problem. These men don't exist in a vacuum.
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Old 08-10-2019, 12:17 AM
 
Location: UK
1,175 posts, read 297,760 times
Reputation: 1910
Good to have people contribute to the thread but can we not bring the MGTOW stuff into it. That is an internet phenomenon, not so much an offline one. Most of the intelligent men I know are coupled up in a committed way.
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